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Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoilers
« Thread Started on May 23, 2005, 8:44am »
Thought I'd open an official thread for us to discuss this movie (if you heard of it, that is, and went to see it). We have a few reviews in the works, I'm sure, but until then...

PERSONAL HIGH POINTS:

* Just having the Star Wars logo blast onto the screen for the last time... emotional experience to say the least
* Vader's destruction of the temple and the slaughter of the kids... very underplayed, dialogue-wise, and that worked wonders for the weight of that moment
* A good space battle (finally), but one without serious significant weight
* Some actual funny or memorable lines
* Seeing the blockade corvette from A New Hope... I really like that ship. It's homey.
* Anything the Emperor says/does. Very good actor, in a league above most everyone else in the film.
* The final battle between Vader and Kenobi... thrilling, if a bit long... the ending is a shocker but has some serious weight to it
* The last few minutes where the movies are bridged
* The kid Jedi doing some fancy lightsaber moves... we were all cheering him on

PERSONAL LOW POINTS

* Um... Stormtroopers can betray and kill Jedi that easily... why?
* The Jedi really weren't that impressive here, in their use of talents. They seem to boil down to: (1) Flashing a lightsaber around, (2) Moving objects, (3) Pushing people across rooms, (4) Jumping high, and... um... well Vader does Force choke Padme... guess that counts for something.
* The GOBS of plot holes and unexplained story conflictions between this and subsequent films in the series. Just... gobs.
* Stab-myself-in-the-eye dialogue, particularly anything between Anakin and Padme, who both really have no chemistry nor purpose together. She does pull off "standing there looking vaguely pregnant" well, though.
* The Jedi code/way of thinking makes even less sense now than it did before. I really pity anyone trying to get a handle on what Jedi are supposed to do/think, because it's so darn inconsistent. Particularly when Kenobi states that "only Sith deal in absolutes"... well, okay, that just about invalidates everything you've seen in the movies before or after. Why fight the Empire? They're not "evil", they're just as good from a different point of view! Why tell the truth when you can lie? It's all the same! Why does Yoda say they have to definitely get rid of the Sith and the Emperor? Argh.
* Yet again, a lack of a team of characters to root and cheer for, like we had with Leia/Han/Luke/Chewie.
* Anakin has a third grader's understanding of How Things In The World Work. Just wanted to slap him over and over and over again.
* The Frankenstein/Vader homage.... really, really dumb.
* And getting only a snippet of Vader in his outfit doing anything was a near-betrayal of fans who've waded through three of these crappy films waiting for this exact moment... only to find out that hey, it's about two minutes long, and that's it!
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #1 on May 23, 2005, 1:44pm »
Well, that and it was a mite disturbing for Darth Vader to actually react negatively to his "killing" Padme. I know, I know, that's WHY he went to the Dark Side, but GEEZ... I can't look at Darth Vader the same way again.
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #2 on May 23, 2005, 2:12pm »
YAY! Someone started this thread finally!

Personal high points:
Seeing more of the inside of the Blockade Runner was cool.
Seeing precursor spaceship designs to the Star Destroyers, X-Wings and TIE fighters. As well as the evolution of the Stormtrooper/Biker Scout uniforms.

Low points:
How is it that Yoda was the only one who sensed the clone troopers about to betray him?
Anakin/Padme scenes.
The odds that Yoda would happen to know Chewbacca - Is the Galactic Republic really that small?
Why only wipe C-3P0's memory?
I guess the Blockade Runner design must be incredibly good for it to remain unchanged for the next 20 years.

Overall I was not disappointed, very dark and very interesting. I also wonder if they could have done Anakin's turn a little better. The reasons were good enough but the allegiance change wasn't quite convincing.
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #3 on May 23, 2005, 10:05pm »
I've been waiting so long for this movie (good time to return to the boards). Thank god it was worth it. I saw it Thursday.

Here's something I've noticed though...


Quote:
* The Jedi code/way of thinking makes even less sense now than it did before. I really pity anyone trying to get a handle on what Jedi are supposed to do/think, because it's so darn inconsistent. [DT: You're going to have to pity me] Particularly when Kenobi states that "only Sith deal in absolutes"... well, okay, that just about invalidates everything you've seen in the movies before or after. Why fight the Empire? They're not "evil", they're just as good from a different point of view! Why tell the truth when you can lie? It's all the same! Why does Yoda say they have to definitely get rid of the Sith and the Emperor? Argh.


There's a point that's very hard to find in this movie (and I suppose an overlying theme of all the Star Wars movies) that I think I've found. The Jedi Council was hypocritical. It was on the path to being like the Sith. The council was also dealing in absolutes (Sith=Bad, Us=Good). There's also this interesting thing where Anakin says something along the lines of "To me, the Jedi are evil and the Republic is good." In ANH, Obi-Wan says something about the Sith not really being evil because to them they are good (something along those lines). It's not really about a fight between good or evil, but restoring balance to the force.


So this tied into another thing I was thinking of. Why did Mace Windu have to be killed? Wouldn't balance be restored to the force if Anakin let him kill Palpatine? Mace Windu was really trying to get Palpatine overthrown, and he said that the Jedi Council would take over for a little (so he said...) afterwords. The Jedi Council would have been so blinded by the light they would have ended up being just as bad for the Republic as the Empire was.

Anyway, I could be wrong on a lot of this so tell me if I am.

RotS was so much sadder than I expected. Well, it was a lot better too. Yoda fighting is good (though I know this one person who doesn't like it. I say to him, "how would Yoda have become such a good Jedi without lightsaber skills." He doesn't get it). I've seen some people who didn't like it.

So..um...that's my rant on RotS.
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #4 on May 24, 2005, 9:06am »

Quote:
So this tied into another thing I was thinking of. Why did Mace Windu have to be killed? Wouldn't balance be restored to the force if Anakin let him kill Palpatine?


Well, I've heard 2 different interpretations to the whole "bring balance to the Force" thing. The first one is that Anakin's betrayal does bring balance--before, you have thousands of Jedi, who are presumably on the light side, and only 2 Sith, who are on the dark side. After Anakin becomes Vader, you have 2 remaining Jedi balancing 2 Sith.

The other interpretation is that Anakin is the chosen one and does destroy evil, you just have to wait a while (he's the one that chucks the Emperor down the ventilation shaft).

Here are my likes and dislikes.

Dislikes-

*The opening space battle. It was too busy. Granted, maybe battles were like that. But with a certain amount of stuff on screen, your brain just sort of shuts down and doesn't see everything. I also had no sense of danger for Anakin or Obi-Wan (yes, I know they both survive to the next movie, but still).
*Romantic dialog. Cheesy, cheesy. Yes, cheese may be what Lucas does best, but having a screenwriting partner would've helped (yes, I know there are rumors that Tom Stoppard was the script doctor).
*NOOOOO! I think it would've been better if they had kept the destruction, but lost the vocalization. Even a plain old scream would've been better.
*Natalie Portman. She's made it clear that she hated working on these films and was just phoning it in. I don't have much sympathy--it was her job and it's her responsibility to do it well.
*The shoehorning in of Chewbacca. It was only done for the fan-boys (and girls). The whole Wookie thing really didn't add much to the story. Either make the Wookie battle bigger or cut it completely.
*I did not like all the foreshadowings to future moments (the twin sunset, etc.). It just shows a lack of creativity and a willingness to bludgeon the audience over the head. "See, they're standing by their farm and it's just like the time Luke did it in the first movie!" Or the Emperor sitting on his chair--"Hmm, this is a pretty comfy chair. I should remember to always sit in one like this when I watch my apprentice battle a potential replacement. And cackling. I need to practice my cackling."
*Anakin's submission to Palpatine just seemed rushed. His delivery of the lines made it seem like he was drugged. I thought about excusing it as though Palpatine was hypnotizing him, but it was just bad.
*Just call them "children." "Younglings" sounds really stupid, especially when it appears in a lot of emotional dialog.
*The whole "deactivate all the droid troopers." I understand it needed to be done because there were no droid soldiers in the previous films, but it was an obvious tidying up.
*Poor Jimmy Smits. All he gets to do is drive around in a car and carry a baby around.

Liked
*Ian McDiarmid's performance. He was a great, slimy, scenery-chewing villian. I bet he had way more fun than he did in ROTJ.
*Ewan McGregor. He has also said he disliked working on these films (especially everything being blue-screened). Unlike Ms. Portman, he was actually professional and did a good job.
*I thought the attack on the Jedi temple was well-done and very chilling. I wanted the young Jedi to be able to flee with Bail.
*I liked the Order 66 thing. Yes, I was disappointed that so many Jedi masters were taken out so quickly. As for how the troopers could betray them, I figure it was something conditioned into them as they were growing up and being trained. The Jedi never seemed to investigate who exactly had paid for the army, which was a bit stupid. "Oh, cool, a huge army. They must be here for some reason, but never mind that. We really need troops."
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #5 on May 24, 2005, 3:43pm »
As I said in the previous thread, I really really enjoyed this movie. However...

In addition to Magill's mention of the lack of danger, I felt the whole first half of the film was a bit underwhelming. As the audience, who has sat through five movies already, we know that the entire war is just a feint to put Sidious into power. So as we watch characters that we know have to survive to the next film fight in battles that we know don't actually matter, our interest (or at least mine) wanes rather quickly. I mean, the clone wars *do* have to get wrapped up in this film, and Christopher "I can't survive the first reel" Lee needs to be dispatched in a timely fashion, but these are not the point of the movie and we all know it.

The romance that Anakin's dark side turn hinges upon so directly falls flat yet again. How frustrating.

There are also several "mood swings" that characters seem to go off on without a whole lot of explanation: Anakin exploding over not being granted 'master' status, Mace's decision to kill Palpatine, Yoda just sort of giving up and running away during his fight with the Emperor. I read the novel after I watched the film, and it gives a wonderfully cogent and plausible frame of reference for most of these decisions that the movie really needed to include. For anyone with the time and money to spare, I recommend picking it up. It's not Voltaire, but it fills in a lot of the plot holes I noticed and provides some great insight in character motivations. It also restores Mon Mothma's part that was cut from the final film, as well as giving Padme` something to do during all this rather than just look pregnant.

In regards to R2's memory: while it's not an answer, per se, the Star Wars Episode III Visual Dictionary lists him as a rather shrewd droid that knows how to keep it's mouth shut, probably because of 'special modifications' made by Anakin (which is also where all of Artoo's nifty little gadgets came from).

In defense of the death of Mace Windu: This is only my theory, and has been since the first film when the 'prophecy' was mentioned. Mace had to die so Anakin could turn to the dark side. As Yoda said, 'misread, the prophecy may have been.' The Jedi are crusty and set in their ways as Episode I opens. They are so assured of their status as galactic protectors that they don't believe the Sith could possibly exist without their knowledge. Anakin's restoration of balance to the Force did not involve soley destroying the Sith. It meant destroying all the old Jedi as well, then producing a new one (Luke), trained differently and unburdoned by a thousand years of rhetoric, who can restore the order to purity. The novel, by the way, lends credence to this theory.

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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #6 on May 24, 2005, 5:56pm »
I have to agree with Al here. I saw the movie, then read the novel, then saw the movie again with much more clarity. It's easy now to see what was edited, where and even occasionally why... but I do think they went a little overboard. I could have easily tolerated another fifteen minutes of film to allow the inclusion of some fairly important scenes, dialogue - and more importantly, a smoother transistion to Anakin's descent into Vader. I mean it's the last Star Wars movie. Take all the time you need to get it right!

My advice is to watch the movie for action, but read the novel for plot, motivation and introspection. (I really dig the writing style of this particular novel too.)

Still, I really REALLY liked RotS. I'll probably see it two or three more times before it leaves the theater, because you just can't get the same effect from a DVD.

Low Points:

- The fight with Dooku. For a Jedi Master, Obi Wan got his butt kicked entirely too easily - which happened before in AOTC and I didn't like that either. (This is definitely better in the book, by the way.)

- Anything and everything Padme. I'm sorry but the fate of the entire Galaxy should not have hinged on this chick. She had a lot more moxie in TPM and AOTC. Here she sort of turned into a wuss. Trust me, pregnant women are NOT programmed to be meek little spineless wussie girls.

- The Jedi Council's underhandedness in asking Anakin to spy on Palpatine off the record. That was just so totally against everything the Jedi stood for that it ticked me off. From Windu, I could understand it. From Yoda, I really couldn't.

High Points

- I really love a brisk lightsaber duel. Lots of 'em in this one! Woohoo!

- Obi Wan Kenobi. He had a little of the humorous spark back that he didn't really show as the stodgy teacher in AOTC. I also adored that he admitted that he'd loved Anakin and considered him a brother. Having gone against the Jedi code (even unintentionally) and forming that sort of attachment almost certainly led to the downfall of the Jedi as much as Anakin's obsession with Padme. Ewan McGregor did a super job with the role within the limitations of George Lucas and the green screens of doom.

- The transformation of Palpatine into a rather hidious Sidious *snerk*in the fight with Mace Windu. Very cool, although I'm still trying to get the circulation back in my hand after Spawn of Mutant 2 squeezed the heck out of it during that scene.

- The crash landing, including the descent into the atmosphere and the fire control ships alongside. Really cool and well thought out.

- The part where Grievous came at Obi Wan like a flippin' buzz saw. I think everyone in my row at the theater said something to the effect of "whooargh!" when that happened. I also NEVER thought I'd see Obi Wan use a blaster. What a hoot!

- The elevator shaft scenes cracked me up.

Now I know some folks have said that a lot of the first half action was unnecessary, but I think it was meant to show how much the relationship between Anakin and Obi Wan had grown over time. They had to be shown as true sidekicks in the most heroic sense of the word to set up the audience for just how deep Anakin's betrayal went and just how terrible a task it was for Obi Wan personally to have to go after him.

I also think the death of the Jedi at the hands of the clones really did make sense. You have to remember that they all knew that the dark side was clouding things, but the clones had been working hand in hand with the Jedi for quite a long time throughout the war. There was a lot of respect between the Jedi and the clones, so when Sidious acted, there really wasn't more than a moment's warning. It was also proven on Geonosis in AOTC that enough fire power can certainly kill a Jedi. Yoda only had two coming at him, which explains why he got away relatively easily.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll end up reviewing this, so I won't say any more, but I'm really very pleased with RotS. It could have been a trainwreck, but it wasn't.


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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #7 on May 24, 2005, 7:38pm »
The only thing I can think about off hand was this line:
Obi Wan- You're wrong.
Anakin- But from my point of view, you're wrong!
(Record scratch) Say what?
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #8 on May 25, 2005, 7:48pm »

Quote:
I have to agree with Al


You make it sound like such a chore, Sue ;)

I just also wanted to mention one more thing that's been irking me. Luke is 17 or 18 in Episode 4, right? Is that really enough time to turn Ewan McGregor into Alec Guinness? I mean, I guess he could just have forgotten to bring moisturizer...

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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #9 on May 25, 2005, 8:07pm »

Quote:

You make it sound like such a chore, Sue ;)


Not a chore, but a mandate! :)

And lemme think here... Obi Wan is 16 years older than Anakin... RotS is 12 years after TPM, which would make Obi Wan 38 during RotS, sooo... by ANH, which is 20 years after RotS, he's 58.

Uhm. Man, those darned twin suns REALLY take it out of you, don't they?

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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #10 on May 25, 2005, 11:55pm »
[quote author=pfrsue board=movies thread=1116855881 post=1117069679]
Quote:
Uhm. Man, those darned twin suns REALLY take it out of you, don't they?


I was thinking the same thing about Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #11 on May 26, 2005, 7:25am »
On the other hand, the same thing annoys me about Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Snape, Lupin and Sirius Black are all supposed to have been classmates, but Alan Rickman is twelve years older than Gary Oldman, who is five years older than David Thewlis.

Lissa would be so proud of me right now.
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #12 on May 26, 2005, 1:33pm »
Loved it.
I think that ol' Georgy boy really got into the grove with this one. I saw an interview where he said that the first two had to be exposition and this one would be all action. I don't know if he just had his senses beat into him and is trying to cover up for TPM and AOTC, but I think it is true. RotS Just felt more like the action packed fun movie that the original trilogy were. even with the mounds of dark content I had a much more enjoyable time watching RotS than the previous two.
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #13 on May 27, 2005, 5:47pm »
Thank goodness, finally saw it last night.

I'll be putting up a review too, but I'll point out my highs and lows.

Highs:
- Anakin's attack on the children. I agree, it was actually a subtly done moment as far as Lucas' standards, and it really shocked me.
- the sight of Anakin, freshly down three limbs, trying to climb the slope and catching fire while screaming his hatred at Obi Wan. WOW, that was unbelieveable.
- the panicked look on Anakin's face as the Vader mask was lowered into place
- the first breaths through the rebreather suit
- Obi Wan finally stooping to picking up a blaster, and then dismissing it as "uncivilized"
- Obi Wan riding the krayt dragon. Not only nice, Jedi-like transportation, but also a little wink at where he learns the krayt dragon scream to scare off the Tuskens in ANH
- Anakin and Padme's scenes together were genuinely better than in AotC (no, they still weren't great, but they were better)
- Ewan McGregor was great, as he has been all through the prequels. Ian McDiarmid was fantastic (until he got the Emperor makeup, and then he was merely good)
- tons of lightsaber action, notably the cool 4 bladed Grievous attack and the frantic duel between Obi Wan and Anakin

Lows:
- Mace Windu being the ONLY character to scream when he loses an arm
- Yoda's mysterious "well, tried I did, into exile must I go"
- seeing the blockade runner and early Star Destroyers keeping on taking off and landing from planet surfaces. Isn't that why they invented shuttles? So the capital ships wouldn't buckle?
- Chewbacca. SO not necessary.
- no Mon Calamari! Yeah, a little early in the timeline, but it would have been cool.
- the whole "don't try to jump over me, I've got the high ground" thing. Well, all right then, he'll just jump to the SIDE of you then, and walk at you on even ground. That's surely a sound tactic... nope, he's just going to try to just straight over him... and THERE go all your limbs

And a special gripe:

Why oh WHY does George Lucas absolutely have to fill every spare moment and inch of screen with his idiotic droids? Early in the movie, every battle droid meticulously goes around saying "excuse me", "thank you", "pardon me" and all kinds of distracting little things when we should be paying attention to something else. But even worse, late in the game when Anakin and Obi Wan are walking out onto the balance beam together in their duel, the scene is all nerve wracking and intense as we watch these two legendary characters finally square off against each other, and Lucas puts ANOTHER frigging cute lil' droid in an open corner of the screen. It serves no purpose. NONE. Not even to demonstrate the droids can fly (as Anakin comes to stand on one later) because it's illustrated elsewhere. It just pops into frame, mugs for the camera, and the action goes on. WHY?

But. BUT. Wow, that movie I would actually group with the original trilogy instead of the prequel trilogy. I loved it.

ETA: OH! OH! Did anyone else notice the Trade Fed dudes Asian accents softened yet again?
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Re: Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith discussion/spoi
« Reply #14 on May 27, 2005, 7:14pm »

Quote:
- no Mon Calamari! Yeah, a little early in the timeline, but it would have been cool.


I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be a Mon Calamari water ballet in the bubbles. :)
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