Harry Potter 7 - Possible Spoilers

[Storm_Rider]

You bring up an interesting point, I've also thought about that and came close to the same conclusion. And although from what he says it does appear that he is offering his services as a werewolf which indeed is a mindless killing machine and rather useless unless he could turn at will and control himself, he was actually offering them his knowledge and skill in the magikal arts...still Harry did well to snap him back to reality, he was in fact only trying to run from his responsibilities.

For me it was only further proof that adults are actually children with grown-up bodies.

[StarOpal]

cheshirekat said:

I honestly loved the epilogue and I wonder why people are so disappointed with it. I like a really happy ending. Closure is a good thing.

I can't speak for anyone else of course, but here's my $.02. I like really happy endings too, that wasn't the problem. I wanted to know what happened to everybody.

Did Harry go ahead and become an Auror, or just live off his inheritance? Did he really never see the Dursleys again? Did Hermione ever do anything further for equal rights? What about Ron? Did McGonagal become Headmistress? Did the Malfoys go to Azkaban? Did George continue the business?

I wanted to know is all.

As for the Unforgivables (pesky little things), here’s my thoughts on those:

"But, sir” - Dobby's voice dropped to an urgent whisper – “there are powers Dumbledore doesn't... powers no decent wizard..."

“Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you boy?” she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. “You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain – to enjoy it – righteous anger won’t hurt me for long -”

Why are they called Unforgivable Curses? Because they are about controlling someone else, having power over them, and you have to “mean” it.

Imperio can only be fought off by a strong mind who has had practice. It takes away a person’s free will. Controlling someone literally.

Crucio causes torturous pain. No ability to fight it off. Having power over someone through pain.

Avada Kedavra. No block, no counter curse. The power of someone’s life or death.

We’ve had how terrible they - and Dark Arts in general - are hammered into us for the last six books. Somehow, it lessens the good guys, in my mind, that not only are they willing to use them, but the Curses are effective enough to show the users mean them. I mean it gives a bit of character insight doesn’t it? After Sirius dies Harry can barely sting Bellatrix, but Carrow spits in McGonagal’s face and Harry pulls off a Crucio worthy of any Death Eater. He enjoyed it.

And frankly, I refuse to believe there aren’t other nasty curses that can kill.

But what bothers me more, no one bats an eye. Not from a character’s mouth, not from a narrative standpoint. This isn’t new, nothing ever comes from Harry trying to Crucio Bellatrix. But still… I don’t know, it’s just not right.

Did I get that out sensically?


And all the surviving (as in all but James) members of MWPP are emotionally stunted to their early twenties... Besides the fact that adults are actually children with grown up bodies.

[Magill]

Okay, I haven't finished it yet, but could Lily be any more of a Mary Sue character? Both James and Snape fall in love with her, and it's her sacrifice that gives Harry his superpowers.

Also, I know we hear from Lupin and Sirius about how great James was. Snapes remembers him as a show-off and a bully. Do we ever get something between those extremes? Perhaps showing how James grows out of his teenaged jerkiness and into someone Lily could fall in love with?

[Razzberryfinn]

Well, it was a shock to me that Snape was in love with Harry's mother. I just figured he was lying to Dumbledore about being sorry. Although that added major depth to the whole 'Snape's Worst Memory' thing. When it hit me that it was his worst memory because he called her a Mudblood, I was totally like 'awww!'. I was actually sympathetic for Snape.

I didn't like the epilogue because it felt to fan-ficcy to me. Sure, it would be nice to think that they all stayed together and got married, but how realistic is that. I mean, of the people I know from when I was 17, very few of the couples are still together. And that was just a few years ago. Plus, I agree with StarOpal, the epiglogue told me all but the stuff I wanted to know.

And a bit of the Deathly Hallows annoyd me, too. I liked all of the Wandlore, and I thought it was clever how the wand didn't believe Voldemort was its master, so it wouldn't obey him. But did Harry's cloak have to be THE cloak? I understand it for the sake of the story, I mean, I would have been happy if it had gone on forever, and it did have to end eventually, the search for the cloak could have easily added another three chapters. But they made a big deal about not being able to curse people through the cloak (I know they mentioned it at least twice because it stuck in my head) but both Draco and Dumbledore put Harry in the full body bond through it in the HBP. Or does that not count as a curse?

And my bet is Neville got better, because he was talented, yes, but also because he got his own wand. Now that we know enough wandlore, I think since Neville had his dad's old wand, it never believed Neville to be the rightfull owner. Ron had a lot of trouble in the beginning when he had Charlie's old wand, and then it broke and he got a new one. I like Neville

I am so relieved Hagrid didn't die, he had a couple of close calls. How terrible did I feel for him when Voldy made him carry down Harry's 'dead' body? Pretty terrible.
-and in that line of thought I didn't like the whole King's Cross situation. I just feel like the whole 'near death experience that simultaneousely explains things to the main character and gives him another chance at life' has been overused. And I'm not being sarcastic. I don't like the whole mystical thing. I felt like it was a way for everything to miracously work out with out having any explanation for the reader. Like, what happened to the shard of Voldy's soul that got stuck in Harry? How do you know it didn't stick to his teddy bear, or the mobile on his crib? What was the baby thing at King's Cross? Why was Dumbledore there?
-and if you think about it, it was pretty dumb of Voldy to try to AK Harry while he was defenseless and all, I mean he tried that 17 years ago, and look where that landed him.

Thats a list of all the stuff I didn't like, but to be honest, I liked alot of stuf, too. Like in the Pensive, when Dumbledore told Snape that Harry was going to have to die. That was the first time since the books came out that I honestly believed Harry might not make it in the end. I was so tempted to look at the end, but it was worth the wait. I liked how Ron came back, I knew he would, but it was very in character for him to leave, I thought. I like how Harry used his tried-and-trude 'expelliarmus' against Voldemort after all that time, and it worked. He may have tried crucio, and I was surprised/dissapointed to see him use the impirious curse, but at least he never tried to AK anyone. I liked that Neville's grandmother was finally proud of him (about time!), and Mcgonagall was fantastic, as always. I loved that the Revenclaw door didn't have a passward, just questions. I wish hufflepuff had gotten more recognition, though. In short, I am looking forward to the next three or four reading of this book

[CheshireKat]

fishy42 said:

I didn't like the epilogue because it felt to fan-ficcy to me. Sure, it would be nice to think that they all stayed together and got married, but how realistic is that.

Ok, you can't write fan-fic when you're the original author and creator of the characters. It's not so unrealistic to believe that two sets of high school sweethearts would end up together, particularly one as close-knit as this group. Not to mention the fact that surviving something as intense as they have for a good number of years would naturally bring them closer together.

The idea behind the epilogue was not to give a "Fast Times at Ridgemont" style update on what happened to every single character, but to show you a single scene letting you know that ultimately the wounds healed, the characters grew up and a new generation continued on. We're seeing Harry surrounded by friends and family and we remember his first trip to King's Cross station, taken alone, deprived of family and friends by tragedy. That final scene, as Harry brushes his long forgotten scar and realizes that he has given his children that which he never had, is for me the most powerful moment in the books. He's lost so much, but because their parents risked everything, his children won't.

fishy42 said:

-and in that line of thought I didn't like the whole King's Cross situation. I just feel like the whole 'near death experience that simultaneousely explains things to the main character and gives him another chance at life' has been overused. And I'm not being sarcastic. I don't like the whole mystical thing. I felt like it was a way for everything to miracously work out with out having any explanation for the reader. Like, what happened to the shard of Voldy's soul that got stuck in Harry? How do you know it didn't stick to his teddy bear, or the mobile on his crib? What was the baby thing at King's Cross? Why was Dumbledore there?

OK, this was explained. The piece of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry (it WAS in Harry, it was what gave him the ability to see in Voldemort's mind and gave him the ability to speak parceltongue) was destroyed by the Death Curse. Because Voldemort had twice tethered his life to Harry's own, (originally cursing him, giving him the scar, and then using Harry's blood to resurrect himself) Harry couldn't be killed by Voldemort. As long as Voldemort was alive he was magically bonded to Harry. It's why Voldemort's death curse had to rebound on him, Harry couldn't kill Voldemort with that protection in place. When he was hit with his own backfired curse, he died for real this time because there were no more horcruxes. If Voldemort had known anything about that connection he would have gotten someone else to kill Harry, but because he put so much store in the prophecy he insisted on killing Harry himself, causing his own death.

The baby thing at King's Cross was that piece of Voldemort's soul. It's all that left of it after he mangled it making his horcruxes. The kings cross scene was Harry's soul taking a just a step or two into the afterlife, it was King's Cross because we were seeing it through Harry's eyes and that how he was interpreting it. Dumbledore was there because it IS the afterlife. It's like Dumbledore said "Just because it's all in your head doesn't mean it's not real."

fishy42 said:

And a bit of the Deathly Hallows annoyd me, too. I liked all of the Wandlore, and I thought it was clever how the wand didn't believe Voldemort was its master, so it wouldn't obey him. But did Harry's cloak have to be THE cloak? I understand it for the sake of the story, I mean, I would have been happy if it had gone on forever, and it did have to end eventually, the search for the cloak could have easily added another three chapters. But they made a big deal about not being able to curse people through the cloak (I know they mentioned it at least twice because it stuck in my head) but both Draco and Dumbledore put Harry in the full body bond through it in the HBP. Or does that not count as a curse?

No one ever mentioned not being able to curse someone under the invisibility cloak, only that no curse or charm could break the cloak's magic and make the wearer visible. If a stray death curse hit you while you wore it, you'd be dead, but you'd still be invisible.

[Al]

cheshirekat said:

OK, this was explained. The piece of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry (it WAS in Harry, it was what gave him the ability to see in Voldemort's mind and gave him the ability to speak parceltongue) was destroyed by the Death Curse. Because Voldemort had twice tethered his life to Harry's own, (originally cursing him, giving him the scar, and then using Harry's blood to resurrect himself) Harry couldn't be killed by Voldemort. As long as Voldemort was alive he was magically bonded to Harry. It's why Voldemort's death curse had to rebound on him, Harry couldn't kill Voldemort with that protection in place. When he was hit with his own backfired curse, he died for real this time because there were no more horcruxes. If Voldemort had known anything about that connection he would have gotten someone else to kill Harry, but because he put so much store in the prophecy he insisted on killing Harry himself, causing his own death.

So what you're saying is that JKR ripped off The Matrix: Revolutions?

[Storm_Rider]

gunslingeral said:

cheshirekat said:

OK, this was explained. The piece of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry (it WAS in Harry, it was what gave him the ability to see in Voldemort's mind and gave him the ability to speak parceltongue) was destroyed by the Death Curse. Because Voldemort had twice tethered his life to Harry's own, (originally cursing him, giving him the scar, and then using Harry's blood to resurrect himself) Harry couldn't be killed by Voldemort. As long as Voldemort was alive he was magically bonded to Harry. It's why Voldemort's death curse had to rebound on him, Harry couldn't kill Voldemort with that protection in place. When he was hit with his own backfired curse, he died for real this time because there were no more horcruxes. If Voldemort had known anything about that connection he would have gotten someone else to kill Harry, but because he put so much store in the prophecy he insisted on killing Harry himself, causing his own death.

So what you're saying is that JKR ripped off The Matrix: Revolutions?

Man don't even joke about something like that, don't forget that she knew how it was going to end from the start, and had the final chapter written for a long time.

Don't taint Harry Potter by associating it with The Matrix series(even if you're joking), please.

[sarahbot]

lissa said:

The Ministry part was a lot of fun, in a sick way. Oh, and can we say Holocaust at all? I mean, the registration? The concentration camp that Grindewald had set up? The propaganda? I agree with her points, but man, she's not subtle. Hee.

If you wanted to, you could read even more into it. It's specifically mentioned somewhere in the book that Grindelwald and Dumbledore's duel took place in 1945. Grindelwald's castle was called Nurmengard, if I'm not mistaken. Azkaban's name is so close to Alcatraz (plus they're both island prisons) that it's not a leap in my mind to associate Nurmengard with Nuremburg. I'm not at all comfortable discussing this further, because in no way am I going to link horrible real life events to magical wizard fights, but I think the references are there.

[Lissa]

I think it's more parallels than explanations. I made the same connection between Nurmengard and Nuremberg. (Actually, now that I think of it, it sounds like a cross between Nuremberg and Isengard. And it sounded like a concentration camp with a tower prison.) And when we visited San Francisco a few years ago and toured Alcatraz, I kept accidentally referring to it as Azkaban. However, I do think there's something more besides parallels.

My guess is what JKR was thinking was WWII was a time when a lot of Europe was afraid and in turmoil. If someone wanted to seize power in the wizarding world, that would be a good time to do so. Something as big as WWII would have affected the Wizarding community whether they wanted it to or not- especially given that the war of the Wizards was affecting the Muggle community in this timeframe. (And given how many parts of Europe were being blown up.) It makes sense that that would be a time when Grindewald could take advantage and rise to power.

I don't think that she was trying to make a connection from the Wizarding world to the Muggle (that the wizarding fight had an effect on the Muggle world and real life events), but I wouldn't be surprised if her logic did go the other way round.

[CheshireKat]

I'd say JKR actually pulled off what Revolutions was TRYING (and failing miserably) to do.

[TheLuckyOne]

lissa said:

I don't think that she was trying to make a connection from the Wizarding world to the Muggle (that the wizarding fight had an effect on the Muggle world and real life events), but I wouldn't be surprised if her logic did go the other way round.

Could be. When Grindelwald's mark first started being discussed, and it was mentioned how others had adopted it, and Viktor the German was so sensitive about it, I know *I* immediately thought "swastika."

-D

[Storm_Rider]

Viktor is Bulgarian.

[TheLuckyOne]

Sorry, you're correct. Still, his accent does put one in mind of the Germanic languages.

-D

[Lissa]

theluckyone said:

lissa said:

I don't think that she was trying to make a connection from the Wizarding world to the Muggle (that the wizarding fight had an effect on the Muggle world and real life events), but I wouldn't be surprised if her logic did go the other way round.

Could be. When Grindelwald's mark first started being discussed, and it was mentioned how others had adopted it, and Viktor the German was so sensitive about it, I know *I* immediately thought "swastika."

-D

I thought the same thing, actually. I had to go back and reread the symbol description so I could convince myself it wasn't the same thing.

[Head Mutant]

From a news article:

Rowling shared with fans, many of whom said they'd read the final book several times in the last week, where she imagines their favorite characters went after the series' conclusion.

SPOILER ALERT: Those who do not wish to know what happens to the characters after the book ends should stop reading here.

Rowling said the world was a sunnier, happier place after the seventh book and the death of Voldemort.

Harry Potter, who always voiced a desire to become an Auror, or someone who fights dark wizards, was named head of the Auror Department under the new wizarding government headed by his friend and ally, Kingsley Shacklebolt.

His wife, Ginny Weasley, stuck with her athletic career, playing for the Holyhead Harpies, the all-female Quidditch team. Eventually, Ginny left the team to raise their three children -- James, Albus and Lily -- while writing as the senior Quidditch correspondent for the wizarding newspaper, the Daily Prophet.

Harry's best friend Ron Weasley joined his brother, George, as a partner at their successful joke shop, Weasley's Wizard Wheezes. Hermione Granger, Ron's wife and the third person of the series' dark wizard fighting trio, furthered the rights of subjugated creatures, such as house elves, in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures before joining the magical law enforcement squad. The couple had two children -- Rose and Hugo.

Luna Lovegood, Harry's airily distracted friend with a love for imaginary animals who joins the fight against Voldemort in the Order of the Phoenix, becomes a famous wizarding naturalist who eventually marries the grandson of Newt Scamander, author of "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them."

And what Muggle, or non-wizard, song would have been played at the funeral of Albus Dumbledore, the most brilliant and talented wizard the world had ever known?

"Surely 'I Did It My Way' by Frank Sinatra," Rowling told her fans, referring to the song "My Way," written by Paul Anka but popularized by Sinatra, among other singers.