Ilium

[DARTHMADLER]

Just finished reading Ilium by Dan Simmons and gotta say it's a great read.

The story is set in the far future where the earth is now populated by humans who know nothing of the past and don't care about the future. They are waited upon by robot servants and protected by creatures called Voynix. Life is good as they spend their time "faxing" themselves from party to party until they've lived through their last of five "twenties" when they get faxed off into space to live in splendor with post-humans. Naturally, not everyone is satisfied with the good life and so a group of humans start looking deeper into things and a story begins.

Meanwhile, in orbit around Jupiter are a bunch of robots that enjoy reading Shakespeare and Proust while going about their various tasks. They become alarmed when they discover a bunch of nonsense going on on Mars and so send a team of robots to investigate and another story begins.

And lastly we have Mars, where what are apparently the Greek Gods have recreated the battle of Troy (Ilium is a fancy word for Troy, hence the title of the book) and resurrected a bunch of 20th century scholars to study it and so how close Homer was to the real story. Bit of a waste of time for someone with god-like powers but who knows, maybe god-like powers will do that to you.

All in all I like the multi-thread story line as it usually ends up with them all coming together and it's funny to see how the actions of one thread affect the others.

It's not a light read and requires some thinking. It also helps to know some knowledge of the Iliad and the Tempest but not essential. If I was curious I could look up the details of either on Google and get enough info to appreciate what was happening. If you're going to read it I would actually suggest doing the Coles Notes or Google thing first so that you can better appreciate the story.

Having read up on those stories I plan to read through it again and catch some more of the details that I missed the first time around.

[Al]

Ooh, sounds cool. Have you checked out Hyperion by Simmons? There's some real off-the-wall-stuff in there mixed with heartache and some disturbing theology thrown in for good measure.

[Magill]

I'll just preface this by saying that in middle school I went through a BIG Greek mythology phase, but . . .

You actually might want to try reading the source material--namely The Illiad and The Odyssey. I recommend the translation by Robert Fitzgerald--he transliterates the Greek character names differently than you're used to, but he also writes it as open verse (rather than prose) with is more in the feeling of how these two actually were (in that they're essentially long songs). I'd also recommend that you start with The Odyssey--The Illiad is a lot bloodier and most new readers stumble when they hit the famous "Catalog of Ships" (an entire chapter talking about each of the 1000+ ships that went to Troy, as well as who was leading them and where they were from. It's pretty dry).

The Odyssey has that multi-thread storyline that you like--you've got Odysseus, who's been away from home for 20 years (10 years fighting the Trojan War and another 10 on various adventures/mishaps); his wife, Penelope, who's trying to fend off hundreds of suitors who want to marry her for her property (they think Odysseus is dead); their son, Telemachus, who is trying to find out what happened to his father while keeping the suitors at bay; and the gods, who are squabbling as to whether Odysseus deserves to go home. In the midst of it all, you get what are essentially flashbacks to the prior years (Odysseus tells a king the stories of his adventures, Telemachus learns of the fates of some of the other soldiers, ghosts speak to Odysseus and tell him how they died).

Plus, it has some beautiful writing. The works of Homer were famous for two stylistic elements--epithets and Homeric similies. Because these two epics were memorized, many times there are certain phrases that are repeated, likely to help the bard's memory. They are things like "the wine-dark sea," "rosy-fingered dawn," "wily Odysseus," "flashing-eyed Athena" (or "grey-eyed Athena"), "swift-footed Achilles," etc. I find them to be beautiful. The Homeric similies are when Homer compares one action to another, often in long, drawn out phrases. You often get a bit of mythology thrown in there. The one example I can think of is talking about a princess, Nausicca, among her ladies-in-waiting. The pride that her parents feel when they see how she stands out among the other beautiful women is compared to the pride that Leto (mother of Apollo and Artemis) feels when she sees her daughter (Artemis, the virgin huntress) running with a bunch of nymphs.

Finally, there are all sorts of little details that I love. My favorite is (spoiler). . .

When Odysseus first arrives at his home of Ithaca, he is disguised by Athena so the suitors don't recognize him and kill him. But he is recognized--by his old dog Argus. Odysseus left when Argus was just a puppy and never got to see him be the great hunting dog that he was. Now that he's 20, Argus is neglected and abused by the suitors. When Odysseus arrives, Argus sees through the disguise and recognizes his master. He wags his tail and then dies. Odysseus is profoundly moved by this and even cries, but he can't go to his dog and comfort or pet him, because he would risk being discovered. And it's told in maybe a page and a half.

So, in short, try reading The Odyssey. It has a lot of the elements that you identified as liking. Given the fantastical mythologic creatures and gods, it has a very sci-fi/fantasy feel to it. Although it doesn't touch on the Trojan War as much, there are flashbacks to it, which will give you a better understanding of the material behind Ilium. Plus, it will help you prepare for this summer's Troy (though I imagine they'll butcher the story). Plus, it's just good reading.

[DARTHMADLER]

Well first off, I own Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion (didn't like the Enymion books at all), so good call on that Al.

As for The Odyssey, I recall Dan Simmons mentioning the Fitzgerald verion as a source. I guess I'm going to have to give that one a crack. I hope this doesn't become a trend otherwise I'm going to have to by a pipe and smoking jacket.

[PoolMan]

But that would look so dashing on you!

[DARTHMADLER]

OK, so I finally read The Odyssey as translated by Stanley Lombardo and have to say that it's a lot easier a read than I thought it would be.

Magill I gotta say you made some good points about the story and I see a lot of what you're talking about.

I've looked at the Illiad and have to say it looks pretty intimidating. Had a quick flip through the 600 or so pages and am wondering when I'll have built the stamina to plow through it.

But before that I have to get fitted for my smoking jacket.

[bladestarr]

I think I might get into some ancient Greek literature after I'm done going through the Bible one more time. Lets see, John Begat Frank who begat Earl... wait, guys were begatting? Is that possible??? ;D

[Magill]

I'm glad you liked it. I haven't read The Iliad, either. I started, but got stuck at the catalog of ships. I did buy it last fall, I just have to make myself read it. Incidentally, I also bought Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf at the same time (I was on an epic poem kick). That was awesome. One nifty thing about that is that Old English was more about alliteration than rhyming in their epic poem. Heaney tried to preserve that in his translation as much as possible.

[Magill]

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but I finally checked out Ilium and am nearly finished with it. I really like it. Mostly because I was always bummed that Hector dies (I liked him better than Achilles) and the Trojans lose.

I've got a question on what seems to be a major plot point--do the Greeks and Trojans live in the future or are they really in the past? It wasn't until I was nearly finished that I realized that they were on Earth, not Mars.

Darth, have you read Olympos yet?

[DARTHMADLER]

Yeah, that fooled me too. The Trojan War is happenning on Earth and in the past. If you recall, Hockenburry teleports Nightenhelser to his home in Indiana, the place is populated by Natives in a clearly pre-colonised America.

As for the greek "hero's" after readin most of the Illiad they are very definitely not what I would classify as "good guys". The only Greeks I kinda liked were Odysseus and Nestor.

I am next in line at the Library for their copy of Olympos and am eagerly awaiting it.

[Magill]

I agree with you on Odysseus and Nestor. Odysseus has always been my favorite Greek hero, though he does some pretty nasty things during his life.

It was when Hockenberry went to Indiana that it finally clicked that this really was in the past.

I liked how the Trojan women decided to take matters into their own hands. Poor Astyanax, but like Andromache said, he was doomed anyway. If I recall correctly, there are some sources (perhaps the tragedy The Trojan Women) in which Andromache throws him off the wall herself--I guess preferring to kill him herself rather than have some stranger do it.

[DarthToad]

I know a good amount about the Illiad and Odyssey because I just had my semenars on them less than a month ago.

When it comes to translations, it really depends on what you're looking for. The problem with Robert Fitzgerald and, to a lesser extent, Stanley Lombardo is that they aren't very strict to the original Greek and lose some of Homer's orgiginal meaning. I would reccomend Fagles if you're reading just to read it, because it reads pretty naturally and doesn't stray too far from the Greek, or Lattimore if you really want to see the literal translation.

Other Darth, I am a bit inclined to agree with you about the actual Greek hereos (though I would definitly add Hektor if we're counting Trojans), especially the ones in the Trojan War, but there are other very good characters, especially in the Odyssey. One example is the swineherd, who seems to transcend all cultural boundaries of what is good. Odysseus, especially after returning to Ithica, seems closer to the traditional Judeo-Christian view of what is good than the Iliad does. Anyway, I could go on for longer but it's 1:30 and I have a 9:00 class tommorow. So that's my two cents on Homer.

[DARTHMADLER]

"Odysseus, especially after returning to Ithica, seems closer to the traditional Judeo-Christian view of what is good than the Iliad does."

I admit it's been a while since I read the Odyssey but didn't he trap and slaughter all Penelope's suitors and then kill all his maidens who helped them? Does sound rather a bit Old Testament to me although he was very nice to his dog.

I finished reading Olympos and gotta say I liked Ilium better. I too have to get up early tomorrow so I will give a fuller take on it another time.

[Magill]

I thought it was that he made the female servants who were sleeping with some of the suitors clean up all the blood and gore. Maybe he killed them after that, I don't remember.

[DARTHMADLER]

So I finally read Olympos and I gotta say I'm rather disappointed.

The end of Ilium was such a setup for an exciting conclusion that I could hardly wait for the sequel (just ask PoolMan). I get the feeling Dan Simmons couldn't wait either because the second book is rather convoluted and I found rather inconsistent.

The scenery described in the book was amazing (I think Simmons is in love with gondolas and black holes, they keep cropping up). And the humour was still good, particularly concerning the misadventures of Achilles who has unexpectedly survived the Trojan War. And I did enjoy the happy ending of it all.

I will still buy the book when it comes out on paperback but mostly to complete the series rather than because it was such a good book, sadly enough.

Anyone else read it?