The Dark Knight

[astralprojections]

I have some aggreances.. and some disappointments with this movie. I have to start off by saying that, while I am a comic fan, I am not that big of a DC fan, and in the DC world, my least favorite hero is Batman. But all that aside, I can acknowledge the greatness of a movie, the ability it has to entertain me.

And I have to say, I was quite entertained by this movie, I liked it far better than Batman Begins, which I didn't like at all. I, as well, was a little trepiditious about Ledger's performance, what with all the accolades he was getting for it. But I was very pleasantly surprised by it's goodness.

This really wasn't a batman movie, he was a very supporting character in this movie, letting the other characters take lead and shine, and I have my own opinion on why that is. I hate Bale. I hate him with the passion that burns with the fire of a thousand suns. I find him to be one of the worst actors in our current period. He is flat and wooden and not convincing as anything other than an ass.. But.. this thread is not about Christian Bale, so I'll shut up now. I believe that the greatness of the other actors shadowed over Christian Bale's performance, and that is why this seemed so much like a NOT Batman movie.

One of my biggest complaints has always been the 'batman voice' that Bale does. I can't stand it. Goes back to my hatred of Bale, I guess. And it was far worse in this movie. I hated how everytime he did the voice, it felt like they ZOOMED in on his damned mouth with his crooked ass teeth, and he seemed to keep lisping the whole time, GRAGH! But, in the defense of this.. *sigh* i don't want to defend this..

Batman and Bruce Wayne.. They're different than most super heroes and their normal counterparts. Bruce Wayne isn't really the main personality, Batman is. He's a very effed up person. Batman is the one who he really is, and Bruce Wayne is his costume. There is a marked difference in their voices, Batman is supposed to be gruff and tough and manly.. And Bruce Wayne's is supposed to be foppish and playboy-y. The way that Bale SHOULD have done the difference? He should have used a slightly manlier version of his own voice for Batman, and seriously Metro'd it up for the voice he used for Bruce

That was my biggest complaint with this movie. And while SOME might not see it as something that big, I do. As an actor, a person needs to be entertaining, and NOT be a total douche (again, my bias showing through).

The only other major complaint I have with this movie is the cinematography.. Nolan, while a great dramatic director, is a horrible HORRIBLE action director. It seriously looks like a drunken monkey filmed both of his batman movies. It was hard to see the action, hard to figure out what was going on, and hard to get into the fight on an emotional level.

I had little complains, I found Maggie's performance flat and uninspiring, and I wasn't entirely happy with all of the writing for this movie, nor the way they sort of just THREW in Scarecrow in the beginning. But I will say I was very pleasantly surprised. When I heard that it was going to be a three villain movie, I got mega scared it was going to be another Spiderman 3 *much much groaning commences* But I was glad that they spaced them all out well, and that they spun Joker and Two-face's storylines so well..

And was I the only one who though the Joker looked like a creepy ass version of Lucille Ball in the hospital??

[aargmematey]

A point:

I actually loved that Scarecrow showed up, mainly because it shows that the villains actually do go on after the movies are over. Unlike in Burton/Schumacher's Batmanworld, where the villains are either completely killed, or just never mentioned again. I think it causes a great continuity between the movies, and it works from a comic-perspective, where the villains are always popping up again for another dose of some bat-ction (...that just didn't work).

And...you know...I will never be anagry at filmmakers if they decide to throw me some extra Cillian Murphy.

[james42]

Well, astral, though I disagree with you about Bale as an actor and actually see him as the best thing that ever happened to the Batman franchise, I'll respect your opinion and stay away from that.

Mainly, I want to support your opinions that TDK really didn't feel like a full-on Batman movie, but rather a crime drama in the guise of a Batman movie. And I'm saying that as a good thing, not a bad thing. It was a very intriguing concept.

Obviously, based on my previous post, I agree whole-heartedly about your comments about Maggie's peformance--big disappointment there for me, since I expect so much for her. It might just be that an action/drama is simply not her thing.

But mainly, I want to say, "Cool!" to your commentary about Batman being the main personality of Bruce Wayne. 'Cuz, that IS a cool statement, and one that really rings true to me. The moment I read that, I thought about the character and, it seems to me, the moment Bruce Wayne thought of Batman as a modus-operandi, Bruce Wayne as a person and personality became ancillary. Very cool perspective, and I think TDK did reinforce this idea, whether intentionally or not.

I will say that, for my own part (and because I don't have a bias against Christain Bale) I thought he did the playboy, flighty Bruce Wayne persona vs. the intense, totally driven Batman persona very well. That, of course, may be do to the fact that although I acknowledge the lisp, I try not to focus on it because I personally enjoy his acting. I admit, however, that the lisp seemed strangely more pronounced in TDK than in Batman Begins, which is why I think so many people have a more outspoken problem with the 'Batman' rasp.

A reluctant nod to the cinematography comment as well. I didn't think it was terrible by any means, but man, he liked to keep close--too close--and rarely bothered to take in the big picture and spacing required for complex set-ups. He only seems to draw back for the cliche, 'Lord of the Rings' majestic setups.

I, too, also felt Scarecrow to be kind of "thrown in" instead of woven in, though I do agree with aargmematey that his appearance did add cohesiveness to the larger picture.

The Lucille Ball comment made me grin, but, um, nah, I didn't see it.

[orangejesus]

So, since my recent return to this board (I was a lurker for quite some time) and my decision to make posts on a regular basis now ('cause, well, hey, it's just darn fun to do), I've found myself growing ever-so-fond of people's little notes in their profiles. That said: nice reference, astral.

Anywho, the point of my note--
I think there is a misconception going on here about the nature of the Bats/Bruce duality. While I am prepared to acknowledge that the "Bruce Wayne" public persona is in no way the real dominant personality (I acknowledge it), I do not think it is correct to call "Batman" the "true personality" either.

In my (oftentimes less than) humble opinion, the true character is found in between the two, in the Bruce Wayne known only to a few close friends. Clearly he is not the drunken playboy booting people out of his mansion, but he also isn't mainly the leatherclad vigilante beating up the criminal element night after night.

The "real Bruce Wayne" (is it weirder that we're having this discussion about a fictional character, or that it seems somehow important to me?) is the one found in his quiet moments with Alfred, able to smile or crack a joke even; the one found craving the companionship of the lovely Ms. Dawes; the one found longing for a day when his nocturnal activities are entirely unnecessary.

Bruce Wayne the Fop is a buffoon with enough money to flash.
Bruce Wayne the Bat is a detective (the scene about the shattered bullet was so dang cool!) with a need for anger management courses.
The "real" Bruce Wayne? He's a concerned citizen with some bizarre talents and a very small family group that he truly loves and utterly trusts. The cowl is just a tool to get the job done.

[astralprojections]

Wanna just start out by appologizing for that uber long post. Jeez, I didn't realize I was that long winded.. ESPECIALLY about a character that isn't even my favorite >.> I am also equally surprised anyone who saw how long it was took the time to read my drivel XD Thanks, that makes me feel all kinds of cool in a very nerdy sort of way.

Anywho..

James, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Bale thing, but don't think I don't respect your opinion, or you fore it. I'm very very picky, and I'll fully admit that I am usually pretty alone in my opinions on stuff like this.

When I saw the first movie in the theatre with my husband, the first thing out of my mouth when it was over was 'Oh, christ, what was with that voice!' He argued with me about it for ever and refused to believe me when I told him it was heinous. But when he went to see TDK without me (I had to work) He came back and said. "Man.. you were right about the voice thing.. and it's worse now!" XD that made my happy little day.. teehee..

Oh, and OJ. The saying is actually very true. I knit like a FIEND. my husband compares me to the demo man all the time.. he thinks he's a lot funnier than he actually is.. And I tend to agree with you on the personality thing, no one is really ever one extreme or the other, more of a mixture.. but i really believe he's a lot more like the bat than the man.

[pfrsue]

Okay, now that I have finally seen TDK, I can safely read this thread.

I find that my thoughts coincide very closely with those of fellow-cheesehead, (Hi, fellow cheesehead!) James42.

- Like James, and unlike Astral, I think Christian Bale is an excellent actor and I truly believe his Batman is a case of superb casting. Can I do without the monotone-rasping voice? Sure. But, I understand the reason for it. I also think that, more than just an affectation, the "voice" goes part and parcel with the Bats/Bruce duality. Iirc, (and correct me if I'm wrong,) in the scene where Batman totally loses his cool and dishes out massive whoop-donkey on the Joker-in-custody, he still maintains the voice. That makes me think that when the cowl goes on, the personality shifts. (A pshrink would probably have a field day.)

Ironically, Bale has been recognized as something of a master at accents since he was a kid.

- Rachel was a fairly useless character this time around, as far as I'm concerned. I didn't detect enough personality there to justify the ardor and attention of her suitors. I also had a hard time digesting her playing equal opportunity kissy-face with both guys shortly before becoming Ms. I'm Dent's Woman. Sorry, I just didn't get it.

- Heath Ledger goes without saying. It's been said already and I don't disagree with the consensus.

- Dent's injuries took me out of the plot more than anything else. They were far too recent and far too severe to be believeable in the context of the film. I'll take the experts' word on it that his appearance is faithful to the source material, but in a world where people are being injured and dying fairly realistically, it just doesn't quite fit. (Uhm, and can someone tell me why he seemed to be practically licking that leaking barrel?)

- The overdone/prolonged ending bothered me a little bit. It's not that I didn't love the movie, but I have to admit, I starting feeling like a kid in the back seat chanting, "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

- Something not mentioned as much, but Gary Oldman did a super job. Jim Gordon became a much more effective character, I thought.

(And incidentally, I think it's cool when British actors do American accents so well.)

I don't want to be down on TDK. I thought it was a very good movie. I don't think it's going into my top ten though. In fact, I'd have to really think about it before deciding whether I liked it more or less than Batman Begins. (But it's not even in the same universe as the pre-Bale movies, imho.)

[TheLuckyOne]

Jul 24, 2008 11:01:18 GMT -5 pfrsue said:

- Dent's injuries took me out of the plot more than anything else. They were far too recent and far too severe to be believeable in the context of the film. I'll take the experts' word on it that his appearance is faithful to the source material, but in a world where people are being injured and dying fairly realistically, it just doesn't quite fit.

In the comics, Dent was prosecuting Sal Maroni, lieutenant/rival of Salvatore "The Roman" Falcone, on racketeeing charges. Maroni's men bribed Dent's assistant to give Maroni a bottle of "ulcer medicine" on his way into court. The medicine was really acid, and while Maroni was on the stand he threw it in Dent's face. Dent managed to shield half his face with a folder he was holding, but the other half took the full brunt of the acid.

-D

[RobOfTheDead]

I totally enjoyed this movie. It really was a crime drama which just happened to be about Batman. I actually saw it last Sunday but plan to see it again in Imax soon. Great performances all around. Heath Ledger commanded the screen whenever he was on. He just had this presence that was totally unnerving. The Pencil trick took me by complete surprise not to mention the dead body falling of the fake batman falling on the window.

I was glad Gordon came into his own in this movie. Gary Oldman seriously sold the part as did Aaron Eckhart as Harvey Dent/Two-Face. I was fine with Maggie Gyllanhaal as Rachel. Micahel Caine and Morgan Freeman were great as always. Alfred really is the character that keeps Batman grounded in reality. Liked all the moments they had together.
The three best scenes in the movie are Joker's Introduction with the Mob, the interrogation scene with Batman and Joker, and the scene with Joker and Two-Face in the hospital. As Howard Hawks said and I paraphrase - a good movie is a movie with 3 great scenes and no bad scenes.
The Bat Sonar was kind of weird but it did not bother me too much.

So many great moments and nuances to the performances. I will catch more when I see it again in imax. The last conversation between Batman and Joker completely defines their relationship in the comics.

"This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object."

9.5/10

[PoolMan]

What I really liked about Dark Knight was all the little touches, most of which (unsurprisingly) came from the Joker.

I liked the way he tells his scar stories differently. I like the way we don't actually get an origin for him. Far too many superhero movies think they need to explore every aspect of the robbery/mutagen/radiation/accident that created the hero/villain. I personally love the fact that we get a villain who, when explaining where he comes from, is probably making it up on the spot like a true pathological liar.

The nurse's uniform made me laugh way too loud, as did the bit where he smacks the remote to finish the explosion of the hospital. The Pencil Trick is probably my new favourite character introduction ever.

But more than anything, the part of Ledger's performance I think I enjoyed the best was when the Joker likens himself to a dog chasing cars. "I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it!". That, to me, may be the most honesty we get out of the character, and the amount of charm that came off him when he said it was palpable. Love it.

I personally found myself very, very frustrated with Alfred. I like Michael Caine, but I don't acutally appreciate how he has basically spent the past two movies verbally beating the hell out of Bruce only to give a nice, mannerly pick me up before the final conflict. I get that he worries about Bruce, but it comes across as bitter instead of warm.

[RobOfTheDead]

Jul 24, 2008 16:43:38 GMT -5 PoolMan said:

What I really liked about Dark Knight was all the little touches, most of which (unsurprisingly) came from the Joker.

The nurse's uniform made me laugh way too loud, as did the bit where he smacks the remote to finish the explosion of the hospital. The Pencil Trick is probably my new favourite character introduction ever.

The Nurse uniform was priceless. The thing that made it hilarious was the Harvey Dent lapel on it. It was also great how the camera lingered on the Joker in the nurse outfit for awhile just sitting there getting ready to talk to Harvey. ;D

[james42]

Sue, I forgot that you're from 'Sconnie'. Hah! Though I must admit, I adamantly abscond from the placing of curdled dairy upon my noggin--only in private do I don yon cheddar upon my pate with pride!

Although all opinion is purely subjective, you made me feel good that my comments could be shared by at least one person...I was beginning to feel like a pariah.

That said, I really DID love the movie. I was simply bringing up those things that kept me from loving it even more.

No doubt though that so much of TDK was the best Batman ever seen on screen.

Feels strange, after so much anticipation, to no longer have that "waiting to see The Dark Knight" in my life.

Now, I guess I have to adjust and begin waiting for The Watchmen."

*Sigh*

More waiting.

[DarthShady]

I really loved this movie, I really, REALLY did.

I think my biggest problem with this movie is that while it's not dumb, it seems to assume that the audience is. It doesn't really allow for the viewer to think about what's going on; as soon as it happens, one of the characters has to explain the who, what, when, where, why, and how of everything. While I loved the dialogue between the Joker and Batman, I also felt as though they could've left some more of their relationship for the individual to think about. Even when it came to the themes of the movie, they don't let the viewer intepret it themselves. They have to practically plaster everything before our eyes.

OK, I will acknowledge that that's probably a really crappy criticism, especially considering that I'm accusing a summer popcorn flick of not being a thinker. But frankly, I felt Iron Man was more subtle. And since it seems as though TDK is trying to be the smart blockbuster, what with every other line dripping with so much profoundness that it ultimately renders them unprofound, that was kind of a let down.

There was a lot more I didn't like, but most of it is nitpicking. I just can't help it. Bale is a pretty good actor, but I'd take Keaton any day. Here, as I felt was the case in Batman Begins, Bale didn't really sell the role of Batman/Bruce Wayne. He gives a damn good performance, but it's just that: a performance. I'm really beginning to get annoyed by that only because I thought he was so great in movies like American Psycho and Little Women. And yes, I too am annoyed by his over-the-top voice. It just got distracting.

Also, there was no chemistry between Bale and Gyllenhaal. I was actually beginning to miss Katie Holmes, simply because at least she had a little spark with Bale. Overall, I was not impressed with her at all.

That being said, the rest of the cast was near-perfect. Gary Oldman is amazing, and I really appreciate his performance. Gordon's my second favorite Batman character ever, right after Barbara Gordon. Ledger was... well, even back when that casting choice was announced, I had no worries. He's always been the most fantastic actor of his generation, and this was a hell of a last-completed role. The rest all did a more-than-suitable job.

Overall, I hated the cinematography. The only interesting shot in the entire 3-hour runtime was when the Joker was hanging upside down and the camera flipped to follow him. That was pretty genius. But otherwise, it was dreadfully unspectacular.

I loved things like the firetruck on fire and the Joker adding "S" to "Laughter is the best medicine." I wish there was more of that kind of stuff. I ate it up! Those are the kind of details I like.

I get the whole point of the realistic vibe and everything, but I much prefer the Burton world. I feel like the point of a movie is to transport you to a world you've never seen before. Gotham should be a dirty, ugly city you wouldn't even want to visit. Nolan's Gotham is just...well, Chicago. I just don't buy it as the most dangerous city in America or anything.

In the end, there was just too much and not enough of everything. However, I was thoroughly entertained while watching it. And really, that's all you need to declare a movie a success.

[sarahbot]

I really liked it and was really entertained by it. However, my bladder was bursting at the seams (sorry for that imagery) and I was worried about work the whole time, so I think I'm going to see it again and really concentrate on the movie.

Heath Ledger was amazing. And now I'm getting all sad again.

Cillian Murphy was unexpected and certainly not unappreciated. /fangirl

I actually think Gary Oldman was the best part of the movie. Maybe it was just the fact that we've been told how fantastic Heath was for months and months, and that I didn't expect Gordon to play such a large role, and also that Gary Oldman could read the phonebook and I'd think he deserved an Oscar, but I thought he was just fantastic.

[BlackCatWhiteCat]

Bat Growl. *shudder*

Well aside from that, I'm going to refrain from beating this subject to death and say that I agree with Ze Poolman 1000% for his love of Joker's dog/car analogy. It was my favorite line. My other agreements: 1. The movie REALLY needed to end at the hospital.
2. Heath Ledger. *sigh*
3. Pencil trick=genius
4. I wasn't surprised that Rachel was going to dump off Bruce, but really...did she wait a couple of hours between face-sucking sessions out of propriety or was it just about which guy was handy at the time?

[bladestarr]

Wait.....

The guy that played Gordon was BRITISH?

*jaw drop*