SPOILERS!!! for Return of the King

[jenfrazer]

I haven't read the books, so maybe someone can tell me if this was Tolkien being derivative, or the screenwriters.

"No man alive?" Please. The moment that was uttered about whosywhatzit the Nazgul, I started looking around for Eowyn. It doesn't take a genuis, just high-school Shakespeare.

And for a Middle Earth neo-feminist, she sure looked pretty snuggly at the end there with Faramir. Tramp. (Honestly, though, does she need a man to complete her?)

I did like her scene at her father's death. Go Miranda Otto.

I'll discuss some other parts later, since I have to leave for work. But to end on a better note, I was SO pleased they showed Andy Serkis as the hobbit Smeagol. Maybe now he can be nominated as Best Actor? I know I'm dreaming.

[Head Mutant]

You didn't see the chain leading from Faramir's neck to Eowyn's hand? I could've sworn it was there... poor guy, he's everyone's lackey.

[bladestarr]

Just a little note here, some might call it a nitpick. Smeagol's race is actually called the Riverfolk (aka Stoor strain), a race which are cousins to the Hobbits (like goblins are cousins to orcs) but are not exactly the same. Riverfolk are slightly taller, lankier, and have obviously an affinity for water, while the hobbits are stouter and prefer the forests and dry land.

In Middle Earth, ALOT of the races are related, and intermingled to create other races (i.e. the Elves being half man, half god-like-characters-whose-name-of-the-race-I-cannot-remember-right-now). The "wizards" themselves are also a seperate race, not men, I believe they are called Vanir (sort of angels), but I might be wrong. Even Aragorn is not entirely human, he is also part another, more "divine" race, n-something-or-other (nuemor?) I've read all Tolkeins books and notes about Middle Earth (including the Simarillion) once, however, it was so long ago that my memory is fading and muddled up. So, anyone with more recent knowledge, please fell free to correct me! ;D

[druidGirl]

I haven't read the books, so maybe someone can tell me if this was Tolkien being derivative, or the screenwriters.

It's a Tolkien thing. Except in the book, everyone saw Eowyn lay down the s**t on the Nazgul, and was in awe of her bad ass-ness. Which helps her since after Theoden died she rules Rohan. But in the movie no one saw it (though maybe that scene is different in the EE). Which seems strange since this big ass dragon with a Nazgul on top is in the middle of the battle field about to eat the king. You'd think SOMEONE would be watching.

I did like her scene at her father's death

Theoden was her uncle, not father.

And for a Middle Earth neo-feminist, she sure looked pretty snuggly at the end there with Faramir. Tramp. (Honestly, though, does she need a man to complete her?)

A little confused, why is she a tramp for hooking up with Faramir? (which she does in the book, I believe) What, she's supposed to spend her days pining for Aragorn? She can't, I don't know, move on with her life and find another love? I wouldn't call a woman trampy because in her whole adult life she fell for all of two men. Geez.

Plus, I don't think it's saying that a woman has to have a man to be complete. I know lots of women who are quite complete on their own but are in relationships.

And also, consider the time period (even though it's fake), as a person of royalty she, even if she was a man, would be expected to marry and produce heirs. Besides, I think Faramir's a pretty great guy and would be a great husband for Eowyn. And Eowyn would totally wear the pants in that relationship.

[Magill]

Just a couple quick thoughts:

Remember that in the books, there's even less for the women to do than in the movies. Arwen pretty much is there to look pretty and have Aragorn fall in love with. In a similar vein, there were a lot of white people in this movie. I know some of that is Tolkien (his descriptions involve a lot of silvery, gold, or white imagery). The humans on oliphants at the end had a vaguely Indian feel (I think it was the elephants + the sound of their horns), so the cynical part of me wonders if in Tolkien or Jackson's world, non-white folk can only be evil.

Aragorn has some elf blood in him (no bad puns, please). Elrond is his great-great-many times over uncle. Elrond and Aragorn's distant ancestor (Elros?) had a human father and an elven mother (though I think it's even more complicated than that). They got to choose whether they would be mortal or immortal (the same choice Arwen made). Elrond stayed an elf (which made it really funny in TTT when he kept going on about how "men" were weak, considering his father was one) and Elros (if I'm remember the name properly) chose to be a mortal.

I was pissed that they cut so much of Faramir out. I really liked his character in the books, but in TTT (the movie) at times he seemed almost evil, and he spent most of ROTK in a coma. The book fleshes out his courtship of Eowyn a bit more. Plus, he needs something to do--now that Aragorn has returned, there's no need for him to steward Gondor. So he can go back to Rohan w/ Eowyn (though wouldn't her brother rule Rohan? I'm confused). Merry was able to help kill the Witch-King for a couple reasons--first, he's not strictly a man, and second, the sword he was using was really old and was forged by some people who first had to fight against the Witch-King (I'm a bit fuzzy on that bit, because it's in TFOTR when the characters are spending hundreds of pages running through the woods and I got bored with it).

Lots of slow motion hobbits in bed at the end. After reading The Very Secret Diaries of various characters, I had a hard time keeping a straight face.

Cinematic things I liked:

-Faramir et al. riding to their deaths w/ Pippin singing and Denethor eating. Creepy and sad yet poetic at the same time

-The flickering of light on Frodo's face when he's deciding what to do with the ring.

-Gondor was purty, though part of me wonders if it would really work in real life

-Eowyn smacking down the Witch-King. The audience I was in cheered when she cut the pterodactyl-thing's head off.

edited because spelling the author's name correctly is the polite thing to do

[druidGirl]

though wouldn't her brother rule Rohan? I'm confused

But didn't Theoden choose Eowyn to rule? I mean, usually it would fall to the male heir. But I thought Theoden wanted Eowyn to rule specifically. Plus isn't Eomer all busy with the Rohirrim(spelling?). I think he'd be too busy running the calvary to rule on top of that. Eomer is still in a pretty high place of power, even if Eowyn inherits Rohan.

[Al]

The following post has been edited for gross errors in spelling.

Magill said:

the cynical part of me wonders if in Tolkein or Jackson's world, non-white folk can only be evil.

That's Tolkien. If you check out the Bestiary, Sauron's human armies (I forget what they're called) are specifically described as 'dark-skinned people' (or something to that effect).

Magill said:

I was pissed that they cut so much of Faramir out.

But isn't that what Faramir *does* in the Return of the King? He falls defended Gondor, goes into a coma, is nearly burned alive by Denethor, gets woken up in the houses of the holy/healing/whatever, and hooks up with Eowyn. I haven't read it in a while, but I don't remember the book being all that different in that respect.


Al
-wants an army of the dead.

[Lissa]

THANK YOU for posting the Very Secret Diaries Link! I keep meaning to find that.

I know I shouldn't even be reading this thread yet, but hey.

[Head Mutant]

Hahaha that's a great site... loving it, loving it!

[Magill]

I'll admit, I never actually finished ROTK, the book.

I got about 70% through it, then skipped around afterwards (I did read about Eowyn and Faramir, Aragorn's coronation, Frodo and Bilbo getting on the ship) and read some of the relevant appendices. I guess I thought Faramir did more (and I'm referring to both TTT and ROTK).

[ThePickleMan]

If I remember correctly, Eomer took over Rohan, and Eowyn lived in Gondor with Faramir. I know they did shoot the scenes from the book with Faramir and Eowyn, so we can only hope their in the EE.

[PoolMan]

Going back to "evil" Faramir in Two Towers, I watched the EE for TT, and they finally convinced me it was a good move. They changed Faramir for two major reasons:

1) Dramatic tension. In the book, Faramir catches Frodo and Sam, and Sam slips it out that they've got the ring. Faramir lets 'em go. That doesn't make for the most tense confrontation on screen, if he meets them, stocks them up, and sends them on their way. The movie makes Faramir's motives less clear and more believeable, because the ring SHOULD tempt everyone.

2) Evolution of character. Presumably, if Faramir GROWS to reject the ring, instead of simply doing it outright, he's demonstrated the ability to surpass his brother and be the better man (as opposed to just having an innate talent). He gets a story arc, instead of just being static throughout.

I also like the scene in RotK where even good ol' Sam is tempted by the ring. Why shouldn't he be? The ring tempts Gandalf, Galdriel, Faramir, the list goes on. If he COULD just wear the ring with no problem, then it removes the need to give it back to Frodo.

Tolkien was a genius, but even for such a detailed story, he had some baffling holes in his plot.

[jenfrazer]

Re: various nitpickings, thanks for the clarifications. However, I think I'm doing rather well for not having read the books and having only seen each movie once. Thank God for the IMDb for spelling.

Re: Eowyn as a tramp. I don't truly mean that. I was irritated about the Gilbert-esque pairing in the last act finale. It might work as a reference to the book's ending for her and Faramir, but as a part of the movie, it seems fickle.

[Genetic Mishap]

This thread reminds me of this review I found:

www.nj.com/movies/ledger/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-1/107155881712510.xml

Edited to add a quote: "But Jackson's movie doesn't ignore other races, or patronize them. It casts them as villains. Why is it, otherwise, that our heroes' latest enemies are said, ominously, to come "from the South," and enter riding elephants and wearing burnooses? Why, then, would Aragorn gives a rousing speech before the climactic battle, telling his troops that they fight for "the West" and all they hold dear? "

Examine. Discuss. Destroy.

[Head Mutant]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

But you wouldn't know that by talking to any english or film majors. ;D