Is Disney Sexist?

[aargmematey]

I don't know, one of the best villains in my mind was always Scar, simply because he was so ridiculously evil. I mean, the evil stepmother made Cinderella do housework. Scar killed his own brother, and tried to kill his nephew. That's a pretty big fluctuation of the "Evil Scale" (that's a Scale that measures evil, not a scale that is evil) if you ask me.

Also, a lot of the Disney stories are focused on girls, and a lot of the villains are women probably for that same reason. I mean, Aladdin is a male-centered story and the villain is a man. The Little Mermaid is a female-centered story and the villain is a women. Simba is a boy (lion, of course, but we'll put him in the boy category), Scar is a boy. Snow White is a girl, The Queen is a woman (obviously). Hercules is a boy, Hades is a man. Basil is a man (mouse, whatever), Rattigan is a man. See how that works? There are a few exceptions, for example, Cruella DeVille is a woman (although that story is puppy-centered, so I don't know how that would work). Belle is a girl, but Gaston is a man. Mulan is a girl, but Shan Yu is a man.

But I think for the most part the genders of the villains match the genders of the heroes.

[Lissa]

Well, Cruella was Anita's friend (for some ungodly reason) and stabs her in the back by stealing her precious puppies? But yeah. She's really against the dogs.

How about motives? (I'm not sure if I have a point. I'm just talking and procrastinating writing a review and doing laundry.)

Evil Queen in Snow White: destroy a girl more beautiful than her (which is disturbing, when you really think about it, because isn't the queen married to the girl's father?)

Stepmother in Cinderella: general child abuse, put her own daughters forward.

Hook in Peter Pan: general plunder, pillage, and who knows what else

Hunters in Bambi: venison.

Cruella deVille: a new fur coat

Malificent in Sleeping Beauty: spite the king and queen because they didn't invite her to the party

Ezra in The Emperor's New Groove: Control of the Empire

Kronk: Perfect spinach puffs

Shan Yu in Mulan: Control of China

Hades in Hercules: Control of Olympus

Ursula in The Little Mermaid: Destroy the daughter to emotionally undermine the father

Gaston in Beauty and the Beast: A pretty trophy wife

Scar: Take control of the pack, power, and his own personal harem

Jafar in Aladdin: control of the kingdom

Of the ones I can remeber, the women seem to be more bent on the petty, whereas most of the male villians are after power over a group (Gaston excepted). The women are more focused on destroying a single person. Which, interestingly, means when you do have a female heroine, she's generally more out to save herself/her father/her love interest (unless she's Mulan, who kicks butt), but the male heroes are more likely to end up saving the kingdom/world/country as well as the love interest.

[Spiderdancer]

sirgallahad2 said:

Interesting note:
Women CAN be evil (My ex) but it seems to me that a large majority of disney movies put women in the role of the domineering, wicked, evil scorpion woman. Anyone else notice that?

Oooh, I want to be the evil scorpion woman.

I'd have to agree with those who consider the portrayal of males in Disney sexist - Aladdin and the Beast are rather the exceptions to the bloodless cutout Ken Doll rule.

Sue: Definitely in Lion King. Be Prepared = awesome.

[pfrsue]

Belle is a girl, but Gaston is a man. Mulan is a girl, but Shan Yu is a man.

Sure, but Gaston's chosen enemy was actually the Beast. (Male)
Shan Yu's chosen enemy was the emperor of China. (Male) Besides, he thought Mulan was a man too.

And Lissa? Go do your laundry! (Sheesh, it's bad enough I have to nag my kids about it!)

[aargmematey]

Hooray for procrastination!

Good point sue, I didn't really think about those. I found Beauty and the Beast to be an odd one, because they both kind of share the hero spotlight. Which makes sense considering both of them are in the title of the movie, instead of just one.

Now...onto the motivations!
Ursula: She was actually out to gain control of all the oceans through manipulating Ariel to get to Triton. I <3 Ursula. POOR UNFORTUNATE SOUL *cough*...ahem...moving along...

Malificent: I believe she was more upset about the disrespect that the kingdom showed her by not inviting her to Aurora's birth...party (or whatever it was...I haven't seen that one in forever). It goes beyond just "You didn't invite my to a party! Waaah!" She was a powerful lady who demanded respect that the kingdom did not give her, and she punished the kingdom for it.

Yzma: Wanted control of the Empire. That doesn't seem very small-scale or petty to me.

As for Cruella, well, I think that's pretty much the only way that story would work out. What other reason would someone want to capture and kill 101 dalmations besides to make a coat out of them?

The Queen from Snow White, I'll admit, is a pretty good example of pettiness. I don't think the Stepmother from Cinderella is as good, because she actually had a reason that makes sense for her actions, which was wanting to put her children first, and make sure they had the best (not saying it was a GOOD reason, but still a reason). Also to keep free help, I guess. I think you could also argue that she is trying to maintain her power in the household. But The Queen in Snow White just has the motivation of "I want to be the prettiest!!!"

I think as far as the movies go, Snow White has the worst examples of a heroine and villainess in any of the movies. The villain is a ridiculously vain woman, the "heroine" just shrieks a lot, gets scared of trees, and then takes food from strangers. None of the characters are really developed. Probably why I never liked it..

Also, I can think of two male villains who had pretty petty motivations. Radcliffe just wanted to be rich, and Gaston just wants a pretty wife (and then gets jealous when he sees Belle cares for Beast). Hm, I think if


Oh yeah, and this is a completely random of aside, but it's always bugged me...what the heck did Belle call Beast after he turned back into a prince? Why did they decide to call him Beast? That seems like it's adding insult to injury. It seems like out of the men in movies, they get screwed as far as names go. The prince in Snow White is just "prince." The prince in Cinderella is just "Charming." Beast is just Beast. Poor guys./endrant

[sarahbot]

sirgallahad2 said:

Interesting note:

Walt Disney had terrible relations with his mother as a child. I have noticed that some of the worst, most cruel and vindictive villains in disney films are all women. I.E.

Cinderella: The wicked stepmother (single-handedly the most evil, hateful, and downright DIABOLICAL broad on film).
Sleeping Beauty: Malificent
Snow white: The wicked witch chick
The Little Mermaid: Ursula
101 Dalmations: Cruella DeVille

pfrsue said:

Sure, but once again, a majority of those are from tales that weren't written by Disney. Besides, we have Scar in The Lion King, Ratcliffe in Pocahontas, Frollo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Captain Hook, Gaston, Hades...

I think, actually, that when it comes to evil, Disney is fairly equal opportunity.

Interestingly, everyone except Ursula in the first list is from the films made before Walt Disney died, and everyone except Hook in the second list is from after Disney died. And I would say they still signify, no matter who wrote them, because the Disney company still chose to make that specific story.

[DarthShady]

aargmematey said:

I think as far as the movies go, Snow White has the worst examples of a heroine and villainess in any of the movies. The villain is a ridiculously vain woman, the "heroine" just shrieks a lot, gets scared of trees, and then takes food from strangers. None of the characters are really developed. Probably why I never liked it..

Definitely never one of my favorites, but that had more to do with the annoyingly high decibles at which she sang "Someday My Prince Will Come."

Although reflecting back on it, I'd say no one really gives Snow White enough credit. She's not exactly Playboy material physically, and she's the fairest girl in the kingdom, but if you imagined her as a real girl she wouldn't be drop dead gorgeous. She'd be really cute, but not impossibly glamorous like some of the other princesses. (Anyone else notice that as time goes by, the princesses' chest sizes increase? I say it's a reflection on the sexual freedom our society has gained since the 1930s, my sister says it's perverted.)

But what I mostly mean by Snow White not getting credit where it's due is that she had the metaphorical ballsiness to take on what I'd imagine would be the hardest job in the world; she agrees to housekeep for 7 men. And what does she get in return? Grumpy being in his titular mood all the time. (Okay, so she does kinda get a bed, and food, and a roof over her head, and her life saved, but whatever.) My mom had become a full-time housewife for about twenty years when my sisters and I were younger. So she was dealing with 4 girls and my dad, who were all relatively neat when compared to the dwarves. Whenever we watched Snow White, my mom would always comment that she'd rather be eaten by the evil trees in the forest than have to cater to the needs of the 7 dwarves. That could NOT have been easy.

In addition to taking care of them, Snow White also ends up putting Grumpy in his place several times. He was this totally sexist guy before she came along. He refused to trust her simply because she was a woman, and she eventually teaches him that his original opinion was wrong and that he had to look at her as a person just like him.

I find it odd that now when I look back on it, Snow White is the oldest of the Disney full-length movies, but possibly put the most forward as far as the feminist movement is concerned. Except for the part about the Queen being evil because she wants to be the fairest one of all.

The film my class watched pretty much mocked the entire idea of girls looking up to a domestic figure, but why not? The more I think about it, the more it's like protesting the production of baby dolls to give to girls so they can play mother. This is exactly the type of thing that made me want to burn The Feminine Mystique. I think girls AND boys should be encourged to follow their dreams, even if their dream is to be a home maker.

Besides, it's not like there were any other jobs for Snow White to pursue....



And now for an entirely different rant altogether, I'd just like to say that I always loved the female villains more than the male villains, in particular Maleficent. She was always my favorite because I thought she was very smart and independent, and if she chose to use that for good instead of evil she would have been the ultimate role model for me.

Okay, this is getting long again so I'll save the rest for later. Anyway I have that class agin tonight and we're supposed to have a discussion on this subject, so I'm sure I'll have much more to say after that.

[varana]

Doc, your statement:

- If you're getting smacked around, are physically able to leave, and choose not to, I think it's a shameful cop out to blame it on having seen some Disney films.

Is quite offensive. To "choose" to leave is a lot harder than you might think. It took me almost 3 years to pick up the courrage to break out of an abusive marriage. I have the scars, and also neurological damage, to prove just how abusive it was.
I lived at a woman's shelter for 6 months. And every single woman there told the same story: At first it's just small things. Your self esteem is broken down. Very gradually at first, but faster and faster. By the time it's very abusive, smacking around doesn't even beguin to describe what is going on, you find you are unable to leave. Not because of locked doors, but because you almost believe you deserve what is going on, and you lack the self esteem to change your situation.
And it doesn't stop there. Once you do leave, you find that your friends and relatives turn their back on you. "she has to be pretty stupid to stay with her abuser for so long!" being the common corous.
To leave is not as easy as a "choice". And the rebuilding your life...well, I've only just started on that, but from what I've learned from other in my situation, it will take a couple of years or more. Right now, I'm only focused on one thing: Save up enough money to a new country and start a new life. That way I will be safe, no longer need police protection, maybe even make new friends?
Was it worth it to leave? Yes. But was there a price to pay? Oh God, yes!

[pfrsue]

Putting on Moderator hat

Varana, I'm very sure that Doc meant no offense to you or to anyone else with his comment. He was simply responding to something that someone else said regarding questionable messages Disney sends out.

While I don't think you took it entirely out of context, I do think this is a subject that you are (and justly so) very sensitive to.

Doc, you've been on this forum longer than I have, so I know that you spoke without malice. Let's all just be a little more sensitive. Okay?

There is no one, and I mean no one, on this forum, who takes domestic abuse lightly.

Enough said.

-Sue

[eatmyshorts]

I find myself not caring.

[DocD83]

*sigh* One of these days I'll have a fancy moderator hat. I imagine it's a green fedora with a long feather in it.

I'm sorry Sue, but I have to respond. I just can't let "enough said" be enough said, because I said nothing wrong, and you made it sound as if I had, at least slightly.

I said:

it's a shameful cop out to blame it on having seen some Disney films.

I did not say the choosing would be easy. I did not say he* would have no hold over you. I did not call anyone who chooses ** to stay by any sort of derogatory term. And I certainly did not claim any knowledge of any other poster's personal history. What, exactly, was I being insensitive about?

I was trying my damndest to be sensitive, believe it or not--I put in the "physically able to leave" part because it would otherwise be insensitive to anyone who happens to have been physically restrained. (Although I still don't know how they could honestly balme Disney for it if they were.)

* Or she--there are women who abuse their men you know, and the shelter that helped you would in all likelihood turn such men away regardless of need. Older male children of fleeing spouses are often turned away too. It's a disgrace shared by all western society--but I can't for the life of me think of how it's Disney's fault.

** It is still a choice no matter how lopsided the forces are driving you one way or another. Don't even bother with arguing this one, because I know what addiction is like, and I have bristled under the use of the word "choice" just as you did, Varana. There just simply, sadly, is no better word.

[pfrsue]

What I said was, lets all be a little more sensitive.

I'm not here to pick a fight or bust anyone's chops.

This is a conversation about Disney movies, and it's been a really great and interesting thread, but somehow a hot button got pushed and pushed good.

Because of the sensitivity of that particular topic, and how it affects certain people on the forum, I'd like this thread to move back onto safer ground.

[Spiderdancer]

You know, I've often wondered about that "Disney wants to kill your Mom" thing. Are they just trying to gain sympathy for young female characters in a harsh world? Are they unusually sympathetic toward the much-neglected single Dads? Do they really just hate your Mom?

Either way, I can see how a girl who grew up with no mother might conceivably overcompensate in the wear-uncomfortable-dresses-and-flounce-around department, as she would have no role model for how actual women generally behave (Lord knows the women in my Mom's family are tough as nails).

Of course, I'm probably overthinking it. There's no way Disney has thought through the psychology of motherless girls as an excuse for turning the majority of them (yes, I own Mulan) into bubbleheaded sex objects. But if I can't overthink trends in film, how could I possibly call myself a critic?

[pfrsue]

Are they just trying to gain sympathy for young female characters in a harsh world? Are they unusually sympathetic toward the much-neglected single Dads? Do they really just hate your Mom?

Or do they just need life's natural problem-solvers put very definitively out of the way for the sake of the plot?

[TheLuckyOne]

spiderdancer said:

Further, most of their stories are based on fairy tales, which for the most part champion a very specific sort of role for women. The demonization of older single women who are independent and non-servile (including my favorite, Maleficent) is, to be fair, very typical of folk tales from Western (and some other) cultures and isn't necessarily Disney's fault.

Coming late to this debate, but if I may make one suggestion... everybody taking part in this thread needs to read at least the first 2-3 collections of Fables. Seriously. Strong female characters out the... well, there's lots of them. Belle, Rose Red, Cinderella, the Black Forest Witch, Briar Rose, Goldilocks (that b$%&@!), Baba Yaga, and the queen (well, deputy mayor) of them all, Snow White.

It's the cure for the common fairy tale.

-D