Videogames and violence

[funkymartini]

We have a lack of serious discussions on this board, so lets keep this thread on track.

Now I know this topic has been done to death, but lets hear your thoughts on it.

Now what are your thoughts on this?



I think that video games and violence is definitely and serious and potent issue. I don't think that the government should censor anything for adults but for kids, it should definitely be strictly enforced. I worked in a best buy once, and I got in trouble for asking too many questions about the policy for selling adult-oriented games and movies to kids. Apparently the policy there is if an 8 year old walks up with GTA3, you have to ask if the kid has his parents permission, (and every kid would say yes) then you can sell it to him. Children with the impressionable minds should NOT be exposed to well, what are essentially mass murder simulators.

Now I have a copy of Vice City, but I played it a bit, and just felt extremely uncomfortable playing that game. They are basically approximating reality as closely as possible, and then glorifying a lifestyle that well.. is not recommendable. I'm not surprised at all that some... less than sane people have tried to replicate in real life what they do in the game.

Now if someone says.. "I've played GTA 100 million hours, and I haven't killed someone"... thats just anecdotal isn't it? Thats not a scientific statistic first of all. And then even if someone has played it, it doesn't mean that they are likely to kill someone, only makes it less of a big deal when someone is killed, it makes anti-social behaviour a little more okay. Thats probably not something that a person would consciously be aware of, its like a gradual mind shift. With kids.. well for obvious reasons they should not be exposed to that, but its probably harmful for everyone.

Now I've played games like Deus Ex, Quake etc... which yeah they're fun, but I've wondered how this stuff is affecting my mind. But I have less of a problem with these than with GTA and games of its ilk. Essentially because of that approximation of reality, and not necessarily a sci-fi/fantasy context like Quake which makes it less real, and distances you from it.

The biggest SHOCK I've had with a game... is playing Hitman. There was a level in there... that takes place inside the Golden Temple in India. I dunno how many people here know what that is, but it is the holiest Sikh shrine in the world. Now my family is of the Sikh faith, and I am not very religious, but that is my heritage, and I still feel an affinity for it. Having.. well, a level where you are killing turbanned and bearded Sikh men (and wearing a turban is a central tenet of Sikhism) because they are "terrorists", is just sick, depraved, and WRONG on so many levels, and its hard to believe Eidos or someone on the development team didn't foresee the uproar this would cause. There have been several turbanned Sikhs who've been killed after 9/11, if for no other reason than some ignorant fool associated it with terrorism, and my own father has been harassed for the same reason. It certainly doesn't help the cause of eliminating racism, and harmful stereotypes against people of colour (and all people).




hmm.. that came out rather unfocused, and well repetitive of whats been said before, but I hope can provoke some serious discussion here.

[MarsNeedsTowels]

I live in a city with one of the largest Sikh populations in all of North America, and I have nothing against them. Well, except for the infighting between fundamentalists and moderates over really inconsequential issues like tables and chairs in temples. To make the connection between them and terrorism is ridiculous, well, unless you count the Air India bombing incident, but we'll leave that one to the courts.

Anyway, while their may be a causal relationship between violence and video games I personally see it as a catalyst rather than a source. If a video game can drive a man to violence there is a deeper issue at the root of the matter, and these issues really should be the focus here. I really think a child's environment and social habits should be under scrutiny, a video game doesn't speak directly to a child while an online community of hatemongers does. For example, "Todesengel" in Minnesota.

[funkymartini]

MarsNeedsTowels said:

I live in a city with one of the largest Sikh populations in all of North America, and I have nothing against them. Well, except for the infighting between fundamentalists and moderates over really inconsequential issues like tables and chairs in temples.

With all due respect sir, I don't think it's your place to say what's inconsequential and what's not, when you are obviously not informed about the deeper issues here. First of all, the words 'fundamentalist' and 'moderate' are just grossly oversimplified labels the media has given. The media will magnify, and blow out of proportion issues which otherwise would only have been minor, and then dumb it down for the public to understand, in the process making negative stereotypes.

To make the connection between them and terrorism is ridiculous, well, unless you count the Air India bombing incident, but we'll leave that one to the courts.

The problem is in the semantics, and the use of the word "THEM". The 2 men were found innocent of all charges, but what you are saying is that if they were found guilty it would basically indict the whole community, because that would make the connection between 'them' and terrorism.

I suggest you may want to rephrase that, and that you get your information from more than just the daily newspapers.

Anyway, while their may be a causal relationship between violence and video games I personally see it as a catalyst rather than a source. If a video game can drive a man to violence there is a deeper issue at the root of the matter, and these issues really should be the focus here. I really think a child's environment and social habits should be under scrutiny, a video game doesn't speak directly to a child while an online community of hatemongers does. For example, "Todesengel" in Minnesota.

But it DOES speak directly to a child. It legitimizes unnacceptable antisocial behaviour. Obviously it is not a source of violence, but it makes that behaviour a little more okay.

I say this as an avid video game player, though I carefully pick what I will play. There's so many (even ones that I play) that I wouldn't be comfortable having my own kids play.

[Hucklebubba]

funkymartini said:

The biggest SHOCK I've had with a game... is playing Hitman. There was a level in there... that takes place inside the Golden Temple in India. I dunno how many people here know what that is, but it is the holiest Sikh shrine in the world. Now my family is of the Sikh faith, and I am not very religious, but that is my heritage, and I still feel an affinity for it. Having.. well, a level where you are killing turbanned and bearded Sikh men (and wearing a turban is a central tenet of Sikhism) because they are "terrorists", is just sick, depraved, and WRONG on so many levels, and its hard to believe Eidos or someone on the development team didn't foresee the uproar this would cause.

I think you may be reading a bit too much into it. I doubt the game designers meant to imply a connection between Sikhism and terrorism. They aren't saying, "Check out these Sikh men, who are automatically terrorists," so much as, "Check out these terrorists, who may appear Sikh-like by simple virtue of their location."

If Mr. Baldy had been gunning down terrorists in Austria, one might expect his adversaries to be wearing tyrol hats and lederhosen. Yeah, it's a goofy illustration, but it's all I've got.

Admittedly, had Eidos come to me for pre-Hitman consulting, and told me that a level was going to be set in a shrine, I would've smacked them right square on the forehead with my "Uh uh. . .bad idea" bat. Combining sites of religious importance with wholesale slaughter makes for a concoction that few find palatable.

[MarsNeedsTowels]

Wow , well, perhaps i'll reconsider speaking at all about your religion in the future. Thank you for setting me straight.

Anyway, this thread is about violence in video games, not religion and terrorism in video games, let's keep it on track shall we?

[funkymartini]

MarsNeedsTowels said:

Wow , well, perhaps i'll reconsider speaking at all about your religion in the future. Thank you for setting me straight.

Anyway, this thread is about violence in video games, not religion and terrorism in video games, let's keep it on track shall we?

Its cool man, its just best to be informed about the issues before forming an opinion. Ignorance is just so rampant everywhere, and people have to deal with racist stereotypes such as Sikhs/Muslims as terrorists every single day. It certainly pays to think about the implications of what you say or do, because this does affect people.

[MarsNeedsTowels]

funkymartini said:

Its cool man, its just best to be informed about the issues before forming an opinion. Ignorance is just so rampant everywhere, and people have to deal with racist stereotypes such as Sikhs/Muslims as terrorists every single day. It certainly pays to think about the implications of what you say or do, because this does affect people.

Of course, I didn't mean any offense, I was agreeing with you. I live in Vancouver, where there are so many cultures all mingling with each other that sometimes you can get too "comfortable" with one another. You almost feel like you're part of everyone's culture, but one should never make that assumption. In no way do I believe in generalizing races, religions and cultures. I even love Australians. (Referring to an older post where I facetiously defamed my beloved Aussies)

With regards to your other comment, right now I still don't think that they can do any worse to kids than social environment and genetics, but perhaps in time they will. Especially with the realism in video games increasing rapidly. Blocky graphics and pixelated blood protected a generation of kids, but those days are over. Parents definitely need to be involved, but one bad apple can spoil a whole bunch. A kid will just go over to his friend's house to murder civilians. The best a parent can do is give the child a loving, nurturing environment and hope for the best.

[funkymartini]

Not saying that I'm completely innocent when it comes to propagating stereotypes about other ethnic groups, but its just a matter of being aware of your own thinking, and checking yourself.

You are definitely right, the onus is on the parents to make sure that their kids grow up right, but there are certain limits that retailers and developers should not cross.

I live in Vancouver too, and the Vancouver Sun, and Canwest Global is by far the worst when it comes to sensationalizing stories, and stereotyping demographic groups.

[funkymartini]

Hucklebubba said:

I think you may be reading a bit too much into it. I doubt the game designers meant to imply a connection between Sikhism and terrorism. They aren't saying, "Check out these Sikh men, who are automatically terrorists," so much as, "Check out these terrorists, who may appear Sikh-like by simple virtue of their location."

Admittedly, had Eidos come to me for pre-Hitman consulting, and told me that a level was going to be set in a shrine, I would've smacked them right square on the forehead with my "Uh uh. . .bad idea" bat. Combining sites of religious importance with wholesale slaughter makes for a concoction that few find palatable.

Of course there wasn't the intention of offending people, and making stereotypes. But that's the thing, there's never the intention to. But obviously someone didn't think about the implications of what they're doing here, in the name of entertainment.

First of all there were enough similarities to make it obvious.

But then this is straight from the game:

"A magnificent, ancient gurdwara (Sikh temple) - complete with marble inlays, glazed tiles, filigree partitions, priceless old wall paintings and gold domes - is flanked by a qila (old fort) and protected by high walls as well as fanatical believers - in front, a maze of small shops and bangalas (small houses) gives evidence of riches and prosperity in this otherwise poverty stricken remote region of Punjab in Northern India. Relentless loos (hot dry winds that blow across the plains of North India during summer) keeps this little oasis isolated from the outside world. A Sikh uprising in this region in the mid 80's was ruthlessly cracked down on by government issued troops, and many innocents were killed - ever since, no outsider has dared venture into this territory for fear of reprisals."

And 2nd of all, even if they may appear sikh-like, it is still creating stereotypes based on appearance. Are those that wear turbans terrorists? No, of course not, but many people would make that connection after 9/11, and unfortunately this has led to tragedy more than once. The videogame makes that same connection.

If Mr. Baldy had been gunning down terrorists in Austria, one might expect his adversaries to be wearing tyrol hats and lederhosen. Yeah, it's a goofy illustration, but it's all I've got.

Therefore any person who chooses to wear tyrol hats and lederhosen (sorry I don't know what those are), be it for religion, personal preference, etc, has the stigma of 'terrorist'.


All I am saying is that the implications of these things should be thought about, ESPECIALLY when it comes to artistic things that are widely distributed.

I like the discussion though guys! This is definitely something that people need to discuss more often

Please check out these links

Background on Hitman Campaignwww.sikhnet.com/s/HitmanBackground

letter to Eidoswww.quamiekta.com/quami/ekta/edios.html

Here's another link.. this is exactly the same type thing, someone not thinking about the implications of what they're doing.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/4263227.stm

[MarsNeedsTowels]

funkymartini said:

I live in Vancouver too, and the Vancouver Sun, and Canwest Global is by far the worst when it comes to sensationalizing stories, and stereotyping demographic groups.

Great, so you understand where i'm coming from. And i've always watched CityTV for my news, ever since they were CKVU. I think it's because of Dave Gerry, he makes human interest seem less patronizing. Oh and btw, specifically, I live in Surrey.

[Hucklebubba]

funkymartini said:

Therefore any person who chooses to wear tyrol hats and lederhosen (sorry I don't know what those are), be it for religion, personal preference, etc, has the stigma of 'terrorist'.

Yes! Exactly! Burn them all!

Actually, the aforementioned getup is the traditional dress of denizens of the Tyrol region of Austria. I was backing up my argument regarding location-based character appearance.

Incidentally: Lederhosen!

It upsets me a little that there's an entire museum devoted to a specific type of pants. What a world we live in.

In the interest of saying something actually thread-related: Yes, videogame violence inures its viewers to real violence, but I say we keep it around anyway, because I'd have a lot less reason to be playing Dynasty Warriors 4 if I knew Xiahou Dun was just going to be working in the garden or putting up aluminum siding.

Speaking of Dynasty Warriors: I couldn't help but notice that all of the characters have Chinese names and wear Chinese garb. This seems to be an implication on the part of KOEI that China circa mid-100s AD was a predominantly Chinese region, and that all of its residents were probably terrorists too. (The ornate armor and plumed helmets blatantly appeal to stereotypical imagery.) Seems a bit small-minded, but that's just me.

In conclusion, I feel a great swell of contempt in my bosom for the GTA series, and Rockstar Games in general. It isn't nice to prey on the repressed sociopathic tendencies of American youth. Bad form, Pan.

[TheLuckyOne]

Hucklebubba said:

In conclusion, I feel a great swell of contempt in my bosom for the GTA series, and Rockstar Games in general. It isn't nice to prey on the repressed sociopathic tendencies of American youth. Bad form, Pan.

I absolutely agree, but I really think we need to take it a step further and get that Star Wars filth out of theaters, video games, books, magazines, comics, network TV, cable, and the internet. Do you realize that some children actually emulate -- emulate, for God's sake -- Han Solo? A character who, in the real world, should be locked up in prison for life, rather than admired?

Just look at the evidence: the man is employed by a crime lord... one of the worst in recorded history, as we're given to understand. He works as a smuggler, violating scores of intergalactic laws and carrying contraband, illicit substances. He's a gambler, a con man, and a thief, as well as holding inexcusably archaic views on gender relations and practicing regular sexual harassment. Nor is he only guilty of so-called "victimless" crimes- no matter what some revisionists would have you believe, millions of witnesses report seeing him shoot a sentient being first, before being fired upon himself, and simply walking away without exhibiting a shred of remorse.

Beyond even that act of arguable self-defense, though, he also personally murders dozens of duly-appointed, officially sanctioned law enforcement personnel, many of them in the process of freeing a prisoner guilty of high treason. On at least two separate occasions he fires upon a particularly high-ranking military officer (once in person, once from his illegally-modified ship), a crime punishable by death in many societies. And to cap it all off, he lends said ship out to a similarly lawless friend, allowing it to be used in a devastating attack upon a military base, reportedly employing hundreds of innocent, non-military contractors.

The fact is, this type of behavior can't be held up as any kind of example to follow in a civilized, law-abiding society, whether real or fictional, because not everyone can tell the difference. Grand Theft Auto is all well and good, but its influence is inarguably dwarfed by the Star Wars juggernaut, and THAT is where the mantle of blame should truly rest. Who's with me?

-D

[pfrsue]

TheLuckyOne said:

He's a gambler, a con man, and a thief, as well as holding inexcusably archaic views on gender relations and practicing regular sexual harassment.

But how can any of us accuse Han Solo of "archaic" views when, to be fair, he lived not only a long time ago, but also in a galaxy far far away? Different times, my young padawan. Different times. Different places. Different societal standards. There's simply no comparison.

Speaking maternally about the original subject matter, the best I can do is keep my eyes open to the video game market, listen to my son's "wish list" and maintain open and frank lines of communication with him.

I also keep the PS/2 in the highest traffic room in the house.

When in doubt, I've been known to rent desired games behind his back and evaluate them for myself. Although he still hasn't exhibited much interest in it, I pre-emptively rented and played GTA a year or so ago. I still have acid indigestion from that travesty.

Sue

[Al]

TheLuckyOne said:

no matter what some revisionists would have you believe, millions of witnesses report seeing him shoot a sentient being first, before being fired upon himself, and simply walking away without exhibiting a shred of remorse.

I get the joke, but in the defense of GL, that *is* the reason he changed it.

--

In the interest of throwing fuel on the fire, I present this tidbit from a magazine I read last month (I can't remember which, or I'd cite it): A study on game violence and the brain was done (yes, again) and, while it's conclusions were murky, they discovered some thus-far unnoticed brain acticity. As an adolescent plays a violent video game, like Manhunt, or watches a violent movie, like Die Hard, one part of the brain does indeed process it and catalogue the experience under "stuff I know is fake." At the same time, however, another part of the brain takes the images and files them in the same place it stores traumatic experiences that we consciously block out but stay with us for the rest of our lives. It didn't say if the trend continued in adults, nor did it actually draw any conclusion from this result, but it's provocative information nonetheless. As much as I love my games, what *are* they doing to us?

Al
-speaking of violent images, I'm gonna go play the new Timesplitters

[Hucklebubba]

I'm kind of disappointed that I've never been able to find any conspiracy theorists who claim that the proliferation of violence in the media is all part of some huge government ploy meant to groom this generation into heartless supersoldiers for some big future war.

I think I could get used to the idea of being a heartless supersoldier in a big future war, on the condition that I get a giant robot and my opponents don't.