Harry Potter 6 *SPOILER* thread

[TheLuckyOne]

Liss is totally right about the Deliverance thing, too... eww. And hands up, anyone who thought they'd ever hear the word "slut" used in a Harry Potter book. Yeah, me neither.

Re: the Tonks/Lupin romance, can't say I have really strong feelings either way. I like Tonks but never felt the immense love for her some fans seemed to -- probably because I'm not the demographic she was most likely at least partially created for -- but a pairing between her and Lupin? Yeah, sure, why not? Let's face it, there was never even the slightest hint in the books of any kind of Sirius/Remus romance; it was entirely the invention of fanficcers looking for a slash couple, so one can't exactly blame Rowling for feeling free to disprove it.

Anyway, rereading the ending last night brought new light to some of Snape's final words, which had me slapping my forehead in amazement that I didn't pick it up the first time through. Harry is tossing spells at Snape and constantly getting blocked, and what does Snape say?

"Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"

Now you tell me- is he taunting Harry there, or trying to deliver a crucial lesson? Namely, that Voldemort will also be able to block any spell Harry throws at him if he knows what it is ahead of time... but if it's a mystery, Harry can surprise him. Remember, Snape is the one who started teaching Harry and the others non-verbal spells, and he's the one who knows how crap Harry is at blocking his mind from occlumency.

Yep, any doubts I had vanished after reading that passage. Snape's still on the side of the angels, or at least he's still trying. Huh, pretty crafty of ol' J.K....

-D

[Lissa]

Another hands up. Who thinks Slugworth whenever they hear Slughorn?

And Drew, I totally agree that I never expected to hear "slut" in a HP book! (Or see date rape drugs, for that matter.)

Let's face it, there was never even the slightest hint in the books of any kind of Sirius/Remus romance; it was entirely the invention of fanficcers looking for a slash couple, so one can't exactly blame Rowling for feeling free to disprove it.

Well, no die-hard evidence, no. But it was (and for that matter still is) plausible. I mean, I don't really consider myself a die-hard slasher- I wanted Harry with Ginny, Ron with Hermione, and Snape with absolutely no one because he's gross, not sexy- but I did see as much evidence for Remus/Sirius as Remus/Tonks. No proof for either prior to HBP, of course, but you can write an exceedingly plausible Remus/Sirius romance. (Not that I spend far too much of my time doing this.) They are exceedingly close, and if you want I can point out all the textual evidence, but it gets kind of silly. But to me, they are written as a couple. (And I totally believe in platonic friendship, as this is my one and only slash couple.) But hey- different strokes, y'know? She did actually pretty much leave Remus and Sirius completely alone, so I'm happy enough. ::Shrug::

And I don't mind that she hooked Remus and Tonks up- I mind that she turned Tonks into a insensitive, desperate, lovesick fool. I could understand why Remus might be attracted to the original Tonks. (Sorry. I just really have a problem with her pushing the subject right after Dumbledore died and at Bill's bedside. Just... tacky.) That's really my big problem with it. Ah, well. It's all supposed to be a minor subplot anyway.

Anyway.

Now you tell me- is he taunting Harry there, or trying to deliver a crucial lesson? Namely, that Voldemort will also be able to block any spell Harry throws at him if he knows what it is ahead of time... but if it's a mystery, Harry can surprise him.

Definitely a good point!!! The thing I keep thinking about is Snape pointing out what a good actor he is. It never seems to dawn on Narcissa and Bellatrix that if Snape's acting so well for Dumbledore, then couldn't he be acting for Voldemort, as well? Hmmm. Not that Snape and Harry will EVER be friends (and I doubt Snape was faking much when he thanked Bellatrix for doing Sirius in!), but yeah. Plus, there's a quote I remember from JKR saying she knew everything about Snape, and he never would have put on Quirrell's purple turban. Aside from the hair/hygiene issue (although we only got one or two mentions of Snape's grease in HBP!), that's a very, very interesting statement.

And yeah. R.A.B. is SO Regulus (Alphard?) Black.

[Ms. Jellybean]

Okay, here to give the report from North Carolina Nerd Convention 2005...

So far, I have found three people including myself that have finished the book. All I have to say is, WOW. I was on a real rollercoaster the entire time, wondering what was going to happen next. That's one thing I love about JK Rowling's secrecy... I can kep guessing. I also have a thing about never, EVER reading ahead, so yeah...

There are a great number of us who are disappointed in the new Minister of Magic, with the way he keeps bothering Harry about being a Ministry spokesperson of sorts. We three that have finished are also mourning the death of Dumbledore... we all had an inkling it would happen, but the fact that it actually happened and Snape killed him was just a downer on the whole day. It didn't help that the three of us were feeling down and then we had to go watch "Hotel Rwanda" for our epistemology/philosophy class. But I digress...

The Harry/Ginny shipper in me was happy. It isn't so much now. The Ron/Hermione shipper is dancing around for joy. The Tonks/Lupin shipper is shooting off fireworks in celebration. I've even found a few Lupin/Sirius shippers here who are satisfied with the Tonks/Lupin occurence.

I'm going to have to go back and re-read everything, as I went through the book pretty quickly. But all in all, I enjoyed it a lot.

I'm also now thinking on what Drew said about Snape ("Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!") and am planning to present that to my two other speed-reading friends here.

[Big T]

WEll, now that I have found the spoiler thread (thanks Head Mutant) I must say that this book was excellent from start to finish.
Snape caused me and is still causing me much grief and confusion. just when you think you have a character completely figured out WHAM! he goes ahead and kills Dumbledore, although all the points brought up in htis thread are very good points, my brain is just going to have to stew for another couple years.
As for the romances, I have to admit that I didn't really expect the Harry/Ginny thing to happen, probably because I wouldn't notice an attraction if it hit me over the head with a dirty shovel, but I can completely understand how someone can be all of a sudden aware of a crush when confronted with solid proof that they are in fact snogging someone else. Y'know there were so many terms that really singled this out as a British novel, more than the previous ones.
Mostly, I left this book with more curiosity than ever, especially because for all we know the next book could have nothing to do with Hogwarts. Unless of course for some reason Voldemort tries to get ahold of Godric Griffoindor's Sword or something.
Oh! and one last thing: Any suspisions or guesses as to who wrote the note in the locket? I wouldn't be surprised if R.A.B. has been seen or mentioned already in the series.

[StarOpal]

I know this may seem a bit late, but after speeding through book five I promised myself I'd take time to really enjoy this one.

I really liked the quicker pacing in HBP. I felt like I was being rewarded for having read this far, not having to get a history lesson on every single spell or every inch of Hogwarts' layout as it's already been used in the books. Could not put it down at the end. I also agree on the no scar mentioning thing. Personally I prefer Slughorn (get me an Everlasting Gobbstopper!) to Umbridge. Every time I saw her name come up my enthusiasm to keep reading would deflate. At least he had something to add to the story.

Finally! Some history on Lily! Some history on Voldemort and why he didn't die! Character development for the Malfoys! I'm so happy.

Dumbledore's death. Seen it coming from book one. New it would be in this one after five. I thought it was handled pretty well. The fact that his limbs being stuck at odd angles was mentioned was a bit unexpected. I mean, sure falling off a tower'll do that, but to have it actually there on the page...

Snape, while it makes sense now, I always saw him killing Hagrid and someone else doing in Dumbledore. Don't ask me why. I hope (and personally believe) that it's the whole 'had to', 'ordered to' thing than 'yep completely evil' thing. It would be really disappointing to have such a mysterious and well written character to be given such a quick and easy answer with still one book to go.

The book was practically dripping in hormones, which, given the characters' ages was not unexpected, but to me got old (get on with it). A part that I was taken aback by a little was, "But unbidden into his mind came an image of that same deserted corridor with himself kissing Ginny instead.... The monster in his chest purred...." What can I say, purring chest monsters. Much like some other parts of the book that have been mentioned, didn't think I'd see something like that. Very different feel than the Cho Chang attraction. It fits the darker tone of the book though.

I TOTALLY think R.A.B. is Regulus. R. and B. aside, I thought it was interesting how his name was dropped earlier (when talking about how long Kakaroff survived). But to me the real question is this: Who helped him? The locket was a two man job, so who was with him?

I feel much more excited than after Order. Now it's time for waiting, darn.

[Head Mutant]

MY purring chest monster usually has to do with indigestion.

[StarOpal]

So would that make it a Purring Chest Monster From Hell?

*Ba dum bum*

[TheLuckyOne]

Okay, something else to consider- Harry has now attempted to perform the Crucatius Curse in two consecutive books, and the fact that he failed each time doesn't take away from the intent. As we know, the Crucatius is one of the Unforgivables, spells terrible enough to earn the caster a lifetime sentence in Azkaban. Yet in neither of these instances has Harry received any kind of punishment for his actions, or even been reprimanded. For a hero, he's awfully willing to use torture on his enemies; and while the feelings behind it are perhaps understandable, that's a pretty dark path he could be heading down. I'm fairly certain he'll be put in a position where he has to choose whether to really, truly perform one in the next book -- whether it be on Snape or Wormtail, it's a toss-up -- and of course he'll choose right; but in the meantime, that's not exactly the best example to be setting for the kids who read the books. Does anybody else think Harry really needs Yoda to take him through that cave on Dagobah to show that he might not be so different from Voldemort?

-D

[Al]

Entertainment Weekly did up a story on HBP this week included some speculation on horcruxes:

"In book 5, Harry and Co. found 'a heavy locket that none of them could open' in Black's mansion."

A friend pointed this out to me not so long ago, but I hadn't yet had a chance to find the passage and post it here. Clever, J.K. Very clever.

Al

[loulabelle]

I saw that Entertainment Weekly article. What bugs me is the writer obviously read other people's discoveries on the HP Lexicon and copied them. I know it's not really plagarism, but I still think it's kinda wrong.

[AJWARPED]

well. I read it pretty quickly but I wanted to sit with it for a while before deciding anything. I have come to the conclusion that I just absolutely loved it. I feel it was just so much better that book 5. I was just totally intrigued with every aspect in it. from the silly teen romances to Voldemort's back story to who the HBP was. Rowling has just created a complete and fascinating world. and I can't wait untill the next book.

[MrHat]

Umm..... Has anybody started to draw the parallel between Prof. Snapes backround and Voldamort's? Both are "Half bloods" on their mothers side, both were aloof of other students (although that is a shakey point) both wanted to teach at Hogwarts as DADA instructors.

[Lissa]

Oh yeah. I suspect the answer to the question "is Snape evil or not?" is somewhere inbetwee. I don't know that he's devoted to Voldemort, but I don't know that he's devoted to Dumbledore, either. I think Snape is devoted to one person and one person only- and that's Snape. I DID find it really interesting that the DADA position is truly hexed though!

The other thing i thought was really, really interesting was how Voldemort's perception of his family was just plain WRONG. He assumed his father found out his mother was a witch and simply wanted nothing to do with magic- sort of Dursley-esque. Instead, his father was ticked because his mother basically kidnapped him and fed him date rape drugs. Not that the father seemed like he was an angel or anything, but man- could you really blame him for storming out? But Voldemort seemed to regard his father as the source of all evil or whatever.

I'm also wondering about that memory of Snape's that we see in OotP, with the hook-nosed man yelling at the woman as the little boy cries. Harry's assumed that the little boy is Snape, and I'd guess that's probably true since I can't imagine he wouldn't recognize the hook-nosed man as Snape himself. But with the information that Eileen was a witch and Tobias (ARGH! Sorry- I'm just still annoyed about that name) was a Muggle, was it necessarily Toby Snape yelling at her? Or perhaps was it Grandpa Prince, yelling at Eileen for something because he was upset? I'd really like to know that, although I suspect it's not important. (I think we were just given that little scene to build some sympathy for Snape.)

Snape's role in this book tosses an interesting light on the Pensieve scene with Harry's father and co. as well. During OotP, I'd kind of assumed that that scene was done just so Harry got the idea that James, Sirius, and Remus were all human and kind of shook them down off their pedestals- especially James and Sirius (I don't think he had Remus on such a high pedestal). But now that you look at this book, I think too she was deliberately trying to build sympathy for Snape so you'd be shocked when he DID turn around and do this. It was very well done.

As far as the Entertainment Weekly article- I'm not sure they copied them right off of the Lexicon. Almost everyone in the online fandom came to the immediate conclusion that R.A.B. was Regulus (probably Alphard) Black, and the is Snape REALLY evil thing wasn't too hard to put together, either. I also don't find it at all unlikely that EW doesn't have at least one person on staff who really loves the series and could put together a lot of the clues that fast. I could be wrong, but so many people reached that conclusion simultaneously, I'm not sure they took it off the Lexicon.

Who helped Regulus: popular current theory is Kreacher, which explains partly why he's half-mad. Regulus dumped the substance that was in the Birdbath of Doom down his throat. I have a different theory I'm playing with, but it's one I know isn't going to happen, so I won't bother with it.

[Doctor Teeth]

I took the book out from the store yesterday at 5:00 and finished it this morning at 2:00. I wasn't feeling particularly drawn to it at the beginning, but the more I read it the less I wanted to put it down, and when I finally finished it, I thought, "Huh. That's all? There should be more."

I didn't think it was bad; on the contrary, I thought it was rather good. The surprising political commentary, the quicker pacing, the character development, the actual story advancement, and the book's scary new theme (kissing) were all very much enjoyed. I think I was surprised that I enjoyed it so much, after the relatively lame duck that was Order of the Phoenix. The bad thing is that I read all of it so fast, I think I may have pickled my brain with wizardry and am craving a fix; I watched the trailer for Goblet of Fire three times this morning...

I would like to weigh in on my disappointment with one of the characters, as a number of people already have. One of my favourite characters in the last book was Tonks: she was fun, vivacious, and a welcome addition to a slow-paced, muddling book. She was one of the few characters I cared about in OotP. So what the heck happened to her in this one? Sure, she's sad Sirius died, I'll grant you that, and maybe her unrequited love for Lupin would get her down in the dumps but...come on! She was in the book three times, and whenever she showed up I was praying that she would go away. I was looking forward to new, zany, Tonks-filled adventures, and by the end of the book, I didn't want her to get with Lupin because he deserved something better than that wet dishrag.

Wow, I didn't know I cared that much about the book. I'm afraid for what I'm turning into.

[PoolMan]

Ooh, ooh, my turn!

Loved the book, even though it's essentially all about that last 100 pages. I too saw Dumbledore's death from about two books away, but for different reasons.

There's a lot of emphasis, especially in the first pair of books, that Harry is untouchable while Dumbledore is around. And to a large degree, this is true. Harry is shielded by Dumbledore at almost all times, whether directly (ring of fire diverting the Inferi) or indirectly (the charms enchanting Hogwarts). For the ultimate conflict between Harry and Voldemort to happen, Dumbledore had to bite it at some point to force Harry's exposure.

Of course, that's if you believe Harry is the subject of the prophecy. There's actually now a chance that Snape may suit it. Half blood. Marked by Voldemort. Parents in defiance? Eh, it's possible. But I'm just toying with that.

Snape is, of course, the most interesting character here. I think Justin and I think along the same lines as far as what happened in the tower at the end of the book. If Snape really IS on the side of good, he must realize that the death of Voldemort is more important than the life of Dumbledore, and the only way to survive the encounter that Draco has put them in is to kill Dumbledore. And I believe Dumbledore is compliant with this as well... notice that when Harry offers to get Madam Pomfrey to counteract the Dark potion, Dumbledore insists it be Snape. We initally take that to mean that only Snape has the expertise, but I can certainly see it meaning that Dumbledore simply wants only Snape present, for whatever reason only known to the two of them.

I also tend to agree about Snape's retreat and sending one last lesson to Harry. Again, assuming he's on the side of good, his words could be a heavily veiled hint on what he needs to change if he's to successfully pull off any assault of Voldemort. He also knowingly allows Harry to keep the Half Blood Prince's potions book, as we come to realize that Snape knows about it fairly early on (as early as the Sectumsempra on Draco, anyways).

I find it kind of silly that Draco was the one who engineered the Death Eaters' entry into the castle. But at the same time, it FINALLY shows some kind of humanity to his character when he can't bring himself to kill Dumbledore himself. Draco is finally more than just an arrogant thug, he's reduced to a boy running scared of threats to his family, which may finally lend him more nobility than his blood ever did.

By the way, this is as good as any a place to mention a few things my wife and I have mulled over regarding character names. Some interesting things here...

- Malfoy translates literally from French as "bad faith"
- Dumbledore translates from... I think Dutch as "bumblebee"
- Sirius - the name of the Dog Star
- and most tellingly? Voldemort translates literally from French as "flight from death"