Harry Potter 7 - Possible Spoilers

[pfrsue]

Just as an afterthought. The "most unfair" death I noticed was poor Hedwig. Everyone else, more or less, had options and opportunities. Hedwig was stuck in her cage and never had a chance.

[Head Mutant]

"So, you see Harry, my death was set into motion by a cursed ring."

"Ah, so it was an accident."

"Well, no. I put the ring on, trying to resurrect Steve Irwin and Mr. Rogers, the only two forces in the world capable of killing Voldemort softly. With their song."

"So... your death was from stupidity?"

"Kind of. Snape slowed it down, but it only gave me a year to live."

"So, a terminal illness?"

"From a certain point of view, yes. So then I made Snape promise to kill me."

"WHAT?!? Like, assisted suicide?"

"No, no. Only if Voldemort -- and this would be silly -- would stoop to blackmailing a kid into trying to assassinate me just so that his failure would bring dishonor to his family. Then Snape would step in, zap, and save the kid."

"So, your death enabled Snape to save a kid? Like, noble and crap?"

"Sort of. Except I also thought it Snape did this, I'd be able to take this super-powerful wand, here *BLING!* to the grave with me. Which would certainly keep it safe, unless Voldemort was the type to go graverobbing. And frankly, I can't see it."

"So you died because you didn't want to pass on your wand? Or you wanted Snape to have your wand? Or... y'know, euthenasia?"

"The truth? I slipped and fell. Everything else was a coincidence."

"Ah. Makes sense. Klutz."

[CheshireKat]

My boss and I were talking at work this afternoon, and we agreed. Death Eaters are a lot like rednecks, up to and including the inbreeding.

"What we gon' do today, Malfoy?"
"Well Crabbe, Goyle. We's gon' get in this here pickup and string us up some mudbloods! YeeeHAW!"

[TheLuckyOne]

Whew. Well, we just finished. Fortunately for Lissa, I didn't have to carry out my threat (killing a puppy for every hour she read the book before about 2 PM today), because Lady Luck graciously allowed me to run out and buy a copy yesterday morning. Still had to put it away during the stupid wedding of her cousin (who schedules a wedding on Harry Potter Day? Honestly), but then she proved her love for me by reading it to me on the entire 6 hour drive home today. In case any of you were wondering, that is love.

But if puppies HAD died? Totally Lissa's fault.


Thoughts:

-Good God, this was really an exercise in "every single character who's ever appeared gets some face time," eh? Oliver Wood, Buckbeak, the Gray Lady (and the Bloody Baron), bleeping Bane the centaur? I'm not complaining because I think about 99% of it was handled extremely well, but a definite air of "And then, that guy from page 187 of Sorceror's Stone, you remember him, leapt in and deflected a Killing Curse in the nick of time!" Good luck to whoever has to cast the last movie and get back EVERYONE who's ever appeared in an HP movie.

-Speaking of which... I'll echo Justin's complaint about the Unforgiveable Curses. I just expected it to be a major turning point- Harry is confronted with the fact that he's been trying to use Crucio and Imperio for 2 books now and really has to take a good, long look at what that means, and how much he's becoming like Voldemort. I think my jaw literally dropped when he used the Cruciatus Curse in front of McGonagall and she didn't instantly give him the most scathing reprimand of his life.

-D'you think, now that Lupin is married AND has a kid, the fan speculation about he and Sirius will finally die out? Or is that hoping too much?

-This one seemed a LOT more action-packed than any of the others. I don't know if it was just because my wife was reading it to me instead of me reading it, but I suspect it was more the change of venue. Hogwarts is great, but there's a familiarity to it. Kinda like the X-Men... sure, the mansion is great, but every once in a while you need to blow it up and send them out into the Australian Outback for a while. Or... uh, something. Point is, the on-the-run feeling made things seem fresher and exciting.

-Ha... Ginny has to assert herself over both Gabrielle and Cho. Perhaps she should just carry around a jar of urine and periodically dump some on Harry's leg.

-Also, stupid Ron! Nice job of doing something to your friend that I can't mention on this site, except to say that it rhymes and the second word is "block." Retracted because it's your sister, but way to ruin THAT birthday.

-Couldn't help but notice that Ron said "effing" at one point, plus Mrs. Weasley using the b-word? Surprised, though not disappointed, to see. I guess when you're killing beloved characters, language is a bit of a minor matter.

-Unless I'm misremembering, Molly was also Bellatrix's distant cousin? Fitting revenge for Sirius.

-Yeah, we all knew Snape was really good and there was more to it than meets the eye, but I'll admit I never foresaw that Dumbledore was already dying. I'll respectfully disagree with Lissa: Harry giving his son the middle name of "Severus," and referring to him so respectfully, was exactly what was merited. True, Snape did horrible things... but as Harry is meant to be (at least at the very end) the paragon of forgiveness and looking past people's mistakes, it seems in character. Perhaps he felt that if he did it for Dumbledore, extending the same courtesy to Snape was only fair.

-No mention of Neville and Luna's kids in the epilogue? I so wanted to see the little plant-worshipping oddballs.

-Okay... I seem to be the only one who isn't getting this, but WHY didn't Harry die in the Forbidden Forest? I get that he was a Horcrux, okay (and I so hated Dumbledore for what he said to Snape about Harry being a necessary sacrifice or whatever), and that Voldemort knocked himself down, but... why didn't one or the other of them die? It was the Killing Curse. Plus, counting all of the others, didn't that technically make eight pieces of soul, counting the part left in Voldemort's body?

lissa said:

I cracked up when Harry got embarrassed because the people were showing a little more of his body than he wanted them to. And you know Hermione and Fleur were totally taking advantage- at least for a moment- of finding out what it was like to be a guy.

You know, of all the things to fixate on, that was the one (in the first few chapters anyway) that really made me pause and say, "....huh. Really?" You'd think you'd try to keep that sort of transformation within the same gender, wouldn't you? I mean, for one thing (*ahem*... without getting into specifics) it'd change your whole center of gravity and throw off your balance. Plus, what if they had to go to the bathroom? That... could take some figuring out.

-And, as long as we're on the subject, Ron (as always) gets the veiled funniest/dirtiest line in the book: "It's pure gold: Twelve Fail-Safe Ways to Charm Witches. Explains everything you need to know about girls. ...I've learned a lot. You'd be surprised, it's not all about wandwork, either." Oh, Ron... how right you are.

-D

[Storm_Rider]

theluckyone said:

-No mention of Neville and Luna's kids in the epilogue? I so wanted to see the little plant-worshipping oddballs.

-Okay... I seem to be the only one who isn't getting this, but WHY didn't Harry die in the Forbidden Forest? I get that he was a Horcrux, okay (and I so hated Dumbledore for what he said to Snape about Harry being a necessary sacrifice or whatever), and that Voldemort knocked himself down, but... why didn't one or the other of them die? It was the Killing Curse. Plus, counting all of the others, didn't that technically make eight pieces of soul, counting the part left in Voldemort's body?

-D

JKR said after Half-Blood Prince that she doesn't see Neville and Luna as a couple just as good friends, so I doubt they're married.

Well now, it is clear that Voldemort was completely oblivious when his pieces of soul were destroyed; it doesn't matter anymore that there were so many pieces of his soul.

The way I understood that part was the fact that Harry had his whole pure soul in him as well as that piece of Riddle's soul, and when Voldemort cast the killing curse and Harry did not try to defend himself Voldemort killed his own part of soul. Because when Voldemort used Harry's blood to gain his mother's protection he tethered Harry to his life as well, so while Voldemort lived so did Harry.

Anyway Dumbledore explains it in King's Cross.

As for using the unforgivable curses, it was a state of all out war, and Harry was of age, and also you've probably noticed that McGonagal used the Imperius Curse as well; I guess if the Death Eaters were firing AKs all over the place the good guys could at least use the Cruciatus and the Imperius curse, although I think the older members of the Order would use AK as well.

I actually found it reassuring that Harry used everything he could to get things done, except Sectumsempra which i think would have got him out of some jams but he said he'd never use it again because it was some serious Dark Magick. (while if it were me in his shoes I'd start slashing people left and right to get things done)

[DarthShady]

We did it, we bashed them, wee Potter's the one,
And Voldy's gone moldy, so now let's have fun!

My thoughts (I'll make this as quick as possible)

-Harry is officially Jesus.

-So glad Hagrid and most of the Weasleys survived. But Fred, Lupin, and Moody are sincerely missed.

-I think the most sad deaths were Hedwig and Dobby, just because they were two characters who had seemed so inconsequential to the main quest of killing Voldemort that I hadn't even thought of the possibility.

-In Prince, the romance between Harry and Ginny felt forced, and I wasn't sure that I liked it too much. But this time around (I thought) it was much more realistic. Plus, I really liked how he kept his friends ahead of her. I hate it when the love-interest comes before the best friend.

-I'm torn about having Molly kill Bellatrix. On the one hand, AwEsOmE! On the other, I was always hoping Neville would kill her, especially after seeing the Phoenix movie. But he did display major win by killing Nagini and leading the DA.

-Anyone else think that Snape asked Harry to look at him before he died so the last sight he'd see was that of Lily's eyes? I thought of this at first, and then a lot of people on other boards echoed it.

-As a father of three, Harry is definately playing favorites.

-I wish there was more Hagrid in it!! I did love that Voldy made him carry Harry's body, though.

-Ron and Hermione sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G! But seriously, the most adorable part was when they fell asleep holding hands. The first time I actually felt something tug my heartstrings!

-Once again, Hufflepuff, the Quiet House, is treated as the redheaded stepchild of Hogwarts. I've always rooted for the badgers simply because they're like the underdogs; Gryffindors are noble, Slytherins are evil, Ravenclaws are smart, and Hufflepuffs don't belong anywhere else. I find the fact that it's such an underrated House sad because it's the one of the four that best represents what the whole moral of the Potter series was: Hufflepuffs are described as loyal friends, and as we know friendship is a strong bond that played a huge role in bringing down Voldyshorts. And one thing that was always stressed was that prejudices are wrong and often times destructive. Helga Hufflepuff was the only one of the four founders who didn't want to make Hogwarts an exclusive school. She thought that all young witches and wizards had the equal right to learn. And that's pretty much the most basic point of the series; Prejudice = Bad, Open-Mindedness = Good. I'm just miffed that throughout the series there was little mention of how great Hufflepuffs could be. The most we got was that Cedric Diggory was the brightest, most talented Hogwartian in his class and that more Hufflepuffs stayed to fight than Ravenclaws. Pfft. *end rant*

-Characters who really shined this time around: Neville, Snape, Molly, Dobby, Kingsley (new Minister! w00t,) Aberforth, Kreacher, and Polyjuice Potion.

That's all I got for now because I need sleepytime.

And let the Albus Potter fanfics series commence.

[Head Mutant]

I think Ron said "effing" at least twice, if not more. Caught my eye, too. I kept getting the impression that Rowling wanted to do dark, really dark, but didn't quite have it in her heart to go there.

theluckyone said:

D'you think, now that Lupin is married AND has a kid, the fan speculation about he and Sirius will finally die out? Or is that hoping too much?

Good Lord, probably not. They'll continue to have ghost sex in fanfic across the interwebs. Besides, you saw that Lupin was afraid of having a kid! That must mean... um... that he disliked the mating process with a female! Yeah!

[Lissa]

-D'you think, now that Lupin is married AND has a kid, the fan speculation about he and Sirius will finally die out? Or is that hoping too much?

Absolutely, positively not I DO think it's not what JKR intended, but there's absolutely no stopping it. It's still very canon compatible (there is this thing called bisexuality), and nothing contradicts the concept that they were a couple before Sirius died, especially since Lupin and Tonks show every sign of rushing into marriage. I mean, by the time they get together, Sirius is dead. And Lupin is very obviously not happy in his marriage. Even when he does go back, he never mentions her- just the child.

To be honest, I was very disappointed that she went that way. When I was finally convinced of the idea of a Sirius/Remus relationship (not until OotP, mind you- PoA was way too emotionally charged to even think that way), I thought it was really cool. For one, it gave my two favorite characters some happiness during a very dark time. But for another, for once, there was a homosexual relationship in literature where- holy cow!- the characters were characters beyond their sexuality. I mean, if it HAD been true, their relationship would have been a footnote, not the basis for their characters. Sirius would have primarily been James's best friend and Harry's godfather and the escaped, wrongfully accused convict, and Remus's primary identity would have been Harry's beloved DADA professor and werewolf, and also a link to the past. That's actually some real groundbreaking in the portrayal of homosexual relationships- to just put the lovelife in the background and let the characters truly be characters.

So yeah, while I know there are really obnoxious people who say "if you don't see it you're homophobic!", I think it genuinely was likely until HBP, when JKR showed us that just wasn't the way she was going. (Or maybe it was. Like I said, she left the idea of Remus and Sirius untouched. Sure, Remus gets married, but it's well after Sirius dies. And sure, Sirius had pictures of Muggle bikini girls (hee) in his room, but a.) he did it to tick off his mother, and b.) he left home at 16. Lots of people don't know their own sexuality at 16. Very, very easy to write around.)

Besides, people write fanfic with every imaginable pairing (including Harry/Snape, which utterly baffles me (okay, so the idea of Snape having sex really repulses me), Harry/Draco, and Stan Stunpike/Lucius Malfoy) so really- Remus/Sirius is QUITE reasonable. At least they like each other in canon.

No mention of Neville and Luna's kids in the epilogue? I so wanted to see the little plant-worshipping oddballs.

I actually started quite liking the idea of Luna and Dean in this one

[Head Mutant]

I just don't understand people's desire to shoehorn in something that wasn't in the books or part of the author's intent. If she wrote a kids series that chose not to deal with sexuality, then I think fans should respect that. There's a time and a place for everything (which is college).

Plus — getting away from Sirius and Lupin for a sec — the people out there who write adult fanfic featuring children are no better than child pornographers.

[TheLuckyOne]

I guess I just really, really bristle at the idea of people trying to add on things that were never there for their own satisfaction... or, to be more specific, the people who are obnoxious about it. It's something X-Men fans (why do I keep mentioning them in this thread?) are well acquainted with, because of the numerous X-fans who think Iceman is gay. Why? Is it because of the staggering number of instances of him looking longingly at men or never having had a girlfriend? Well... no, he's always dated women and never expressed any interest in men. But, see, a bitchy telepath once asked him if he'd decided to abandon the X-Men and pursue his love of interior decorating! So he must be gay! And, sure, it's good for a laugh sometimes (as they did on Family Guy), but you will find people who get REALLY mad when you point out that, well, he actually probably isn't gay. And it just sort of feels like, y'know, there are characters who have been actually shown to be gay, and it's believable because they never or rarely dated women. (Or men, as the case may be.) But if it wasn't the author's intent, and they indicate in every way possible that it isn't the case (like the way that, uh, Iceman continues to sleep with women), then... by all means, hold your own views and keep to them, and take it with a grain of salt- they're just fictional characters, after all. Just don't get mad when other people dare to believe that sometimes a spade is actually a spade.

(And that isn't directed at you, Lissa, honestly; just wanted to get it off my chest while we were on the topic.)


Thoughts I didn't voice last night because I forgot:

-So, nothing about Sirius and the Veil, huh? I'd imagine a number of people were surprised about that. Guess the Department of Mysteries will remain exactly that.

-Dudley being nice to Harry was cool. Slightly offputting, since a few days ago we all watched Movie Dudley being a jerk, but cool.

-Bummer for Griphook about the Sword of Gryffindor. I was surprised that it ended up back in the Sorting Hat, though obviously with Griphook's betrayal, nobody's feeling too bad about that.

-So Ron and Hermione's kids are named Hugo and Rose? I was wracking my brains trying to think if those names came from someone. Of course, they might easily just be independent names, but since Harry and Ginny's kids all honored dead people with their names, sort of thought Ron and Hermione's might follow suit. I'm just going to assume that George already had a kid and named him "Fred."

-I may be completely misremembering this -- wouldn't be the first time -- but I could swear I once read that J.K. Rowling had had the final chapter of Book 7 written for years (maybe since the first book), and that the very last word was "scar." I was POSITIVE. Now, neither the "final chapter" nor the epilogue has that as the last word. Did I totally make that up in my mind, or does anyone else remember that?

-D

[pfrsue]

admin said:

I just don't understand people's desire to shoehorn in something that wasn't in the books or part of the author's intent. If she wrote a kids series that chose not to deal with sexuality, then I think fans should respect that. There's a time and a place for everything (which is college).

And yet, Rowling does deal with sexuality in a very limited way. Otherwise, why even mention Ron's birthday present to Harry? That certainly wasn't necessary to the plot, yet she chose to write it in. I'm not complaining either, because why shouldn't 17 year old wizards be as interested in that sort of thing as 17 year old muggles are?

The thing with Sirius and Lupin is that at least they'd both be consenting adults with a foundation of friendship and respect. I find that much less objectionable than a lot of the "ships" that are out there. (Most of which disgust me.) I also think that there's precious little in the books to indicate that a relationship of that nature couldn't have taken place. It's important to remember that the books all come from Harry's point of view - so quite a lot of the relationships and dynamics between the adults (and I'm not just referring to their sexuality or lack thereof) has to be taken from context. I won't say that Rowling planned on the Sirius/Lupin ship that the fanfic writers have embraced, but she did leave the door open, even after she wrote the marriage of Lupin and Tonks. Maybe that was intentional, maybe not, but I think it's established fanfiction canon now.

Plus — getting away from Sirius and Lupin for a sec — the people out there who write adult fanfic featuring children are no better than child pornographers.

You won't get any argument from me on that.

[Head Mutant]

Okay, point taken.

[pfrsue]

By the way, I don't think there is a wizarding college. (If there was, Percy would have gone, and Hermione would probably have been going for early graduation from Hogwarts.) My impression is that the OWLs cover the high school level stuff, and the NEWTS represent the university level.

[Lissa]

I just don't understand people's desire to shoehorn in something that wasn't in the books or part of the author's intent. If she wrote a kids series that chose not to deal with sexuality, then I think fans should respect that. There's a time and a place for everything (which is college).

Personal preference, I suppose. I mean, there IS a lot left unaddressed, and a lot of stories JKR eluded to but didn't tell. I mean, there's a whole category of gen fanfics, with no sex whatsoever. I wrote one I'm very fond of about Charlie making the decision to play Quidditch for England or to go chasing dragons. His best friend had to be created, and I'm sure JKR never even went that far. It's a fun way to play with a compelling world, and people all have their own reasons for it.

People write fanfic for a lot of reasons. They want to fill in gaps. They want to show what they would have done differently. They want to practice writing skills in a community where a.) you can actually get read and b.) people will give you feedback. They want to just write for fun, in a very no-pressure atmosphere. (Since you can't publish fanfic, there's no pressure involved.) It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I understand parts of the phenomenon very well. (I will admit I totally don't get the pairings I mentioned above. And I like writing long, complicated plots myself.) Fanfic is essentially a giant playground for writers who don't want to publish what they're writing.

I don't have a problem with it in essence, because JKR did leave so much open. I mean, a story I would love to write post-DH is Remus helping Ron coming around to the fact he left Harry and Hermione, and why he should return. Intended by JKR? Seriously doubt it. Interesting story? To some people, probably.

There are also other issues that Rowling chose not to include but allude to that people choose to address. Example: my all-time favorite fic I've ever written is a study of Sirius and his relationship with God. JKR does avoid spiritual issues, although there's clearly some Christian basis for her religions, given the concept of godfather and the fact Harry had a christening with a priest. It's a less controversial example of shoehorning in something JKR didn't fully address, but was really worth exploring. (Plus, I really, really, really was proud of that story. )

Plus — getting away from Sirius and Lupin for a sec — the people out there who write adult fanfic featuring children are no better than child pornographers.

I don't know. I will say outright I am not at all comfortable with adult fanfic featuring underaged people. I do agree about that. However, there are a couple of points I would make:

1.) There's a difference in child pornography vs. fanfic in that child pornography exploits real children, whereas fanfic is about fictional characters. Again, I would like to emphasize I'm not saying I approve of it, but I am saying there is a degree of difference here.

2.) Age of people writing. A LOT of fanfic writers out there are underaged themselves. I find a 15-year-old writing about 15-year-olds much less disturbing than a 40 year old writing about 15 year olds.

Corollary: when do people become adults? At 18, according to U.S. law. So, a 19 year old writing about a 17 year old is technically and adult writing about a minor. But I think most people would agree that a 19 year old writing about two 17 year olds is very, very different than a 44 year old writing about a 36 year old with a 13 year old.

3.) To me, this is the big point. It does depend on the story. Again, I think it's often unnecessary to include the details, but let's face it: kids do have sex underage, and there are consequences. I would read a story that had vague details about the actual act but focused strongly on the emotional consequences. (See The Princess Diaries, for that matter, although I haven't read the 8th book yet.) I feel the same way, incidentally, about stories featuring rape or abuse. When the focus is on the response and recovery, it's a completely different story than when the focus is on the act. And yet, I personally would rate them both "adult." However, I suspect that's not what you meant

I think there are things that are automatically despicable, but I definitely hesitate to cast a blanket of evil over every person writing adult fanfic featuring minor-aged characters. (Again, I don't read it or write it myself, just as a caveat.) And given how much fic that is out there that is NOT adult, even if it focuses on a romantic relationship.... Fanfic gets a bad rap sometimes

then... by all means, hold your own views and keep to them, and take it with a grain of salt- they're just fictional characters, after all.

Heh, and Drew, I think this is the most important point of all, and really wish people would remember it!

[Magill]

gunslingeral said:

I was given an extremely well-written (but ultimately fake) copy of the Deathly Hallows four or five weeks ago, and read it before it was all over the news that there were a half-dozen of them floating around and that they were all probably bogus.

I also got an early electronic copy. It turned out to be the real deal. However, after reading the bit where Mrs. Weasley kills Bellatrix, I was convinced it had to be fake. It just didn't seem like Rowling's voice. The Elder Wand stuff and how Voldemort accidentally kills himself (sort of like how some villians always seem to fall on their knife so the protagonist doesn't actually have to kill someone) also had me thinking it was some sort of fanfic.