DRM - what do you think?

[PoolMan]

I was going to comment on this in the What Are You Playing thread (regarding Spore), but I thought it probably merits its own conversation.

Specific to the recent release of EA's Spore, people everywhere are crying absolute foul that EA instituted digital rights management software on the game that prohibits more than 3 installs without a phone call to EA to reset. There's apparently some software that stays permanently on the user's system that monitors this. If the user for some reason needs to install Spore a fourth time, a phone call to EA is required.

Now, I'm not super happy that some resident software is sitting on my computer, but I'm a little puzzled as to why people are so offended that a software company is taking steps to protect itself from piracy. (the community response, by the way, appears to be "let's pirate the hell out of this software in protest")

As someone who pays for the vast majority of his electronic entertainment, doesn't change OS's every two weeks, and works for a company that sells software and other intellectual property all the time, I don't really understand what the big deal is. However, my mind is open, so... enlighten me?

[DARTHMADLER]

First off, my apologies if my first post after so long brings about the apocalypse but it is a topic I find interesting.

I would think mainly the fact that it will only ever inconvenience legitimate users.

For every new anti-pirate system there is a crack is not far behind. I thought that Steam had a sure-fire anti-pirate system by requiring you to connect and download the last bit of software from their site in order to play games like Half-life 2 (oh the joy of going through 5 cds of installation and then realizing there is still more to download). Sure enough there is now a crack to get around even this.

Now suppose as a legitimate user, it's 10 years and 3 installs later and the software developer/distributer no longer exists or supports said game and I want to play it for old times sake. What do I do?

I now return to my Cave of Lurking.

[PoolMan]

Well, pick my jaw up off the floor and call me a monkey's uncle! DarthMadler, back from retirement (however momentarily)? I may faint!

Sept 17, 2008 14:44:00 GMT -5 DARTHMADLER said:

I would think mainly the fact that it will only ever inconvenience legitimate users.

Probably true, but I still don't understand how this necessitates a "piracy protest", or indeed a protest of any kind. If it means a slightly longer wait for those who are going to steal the game anyways, what do they care (and what rights are they entitled to in the first place)? And why should legit users get bent out of shape? EA won't dispatch the dogs that shoot killer bees when they bark at you upon install #4...

Sept 17, 2008 14:44:00 GMT -5 DARTHMADLER said:

Now suppose as a legitimate user, it's 10 years and 3 installs later and the software developer/distributer no longer exists or supports said game and I want to play it for old times sake. What do I do?

EA won't be around in 10 years? I would call that unlikely at best. You call EA, and ask for a reset. Pretty standard, my company does it all the time.

But even assuming one of gaming's juggernauts doesn't exist as an entity in 10 years, I'd say at that point there'll be 100 different cracks available, and no legal entity around any more to care.

[Al]

I thought Tycho from Penny Arcade did a good job talking about this a few months back: Blog 5/9/2008

The Spore thing (which, incidentally, I've decided to buy when I get paid next week; I've had too much fun with it to do otherwise) was a bit of a fluke, 99% of everything I play has been purchased by me or for me without complaint. I'm happy to pay designers and distributors whatever price they charge for a game I want. Even with mp3s, I'm more likely to just buy off of my iTunes than download something from a P2P service.

Measures like SecuROM just take the notion of 'protection' a little too far for my liking. It installs software on your computer that it doesn't disclose to you, it provides a version of the game that is less stable than the what the pirates can offer, and, to top it all off, the DRM doesn't even work! The game was hacked and ready for download the day after the game was released. Anybody who wants a copy (and knows how to follow instructions) can get the rip, mount a drive, and have the game fully playable within a half an hour from when the download finishes. To quote PA, "As a publicly held company, they can't do nothing - I'm an adult, I get it. Even so, I think we'd scoot the line back over toward Liberty."

I also hold no illusions about my relationship to EA: they don't care about me. They don't care about my complaints, my concerns, or how the integrity my computer may or may not have been affected. Like Hollywood pumping out Vin Diesel movies or "___ Movie" movies, they don't care if I like it, they just care if I'll pay for it. Thus, the only way to make *any* impression at all if to vote with your wallet and not buy.

[bladestarr]

"As someone who pays for the vast majority of his electronic entertainment, doesn't change OS's every two weeks, and works for a company that sells software and other intellectual property all the time, I don't really understand what the big deal is."

There you go, that right there. Lots and lots and lots of techies love to reinstall their OS periodically "just because", even if there is no problem (yet...).

On top of that, it's a moral issue. It takes away from your rights as a consumer. It means that you don't really OWN the software that you paid for, instead you're being "allowed to use it" by some nanny.

Actually, thinking back, there was an article that explained this point even better when Windows "Activation" came around and caused the same kind of stir. I'll go find it for you....

Here is a link to the Wayback version of the article, apparently it was taken down at some point and replaced with a Boycott Microsoft page.

Anyways, here are some good snippets:

"The XP series (Windows and Office) has a new feature — "product activation" — that perverts the relationship that normally exists between seller and buyer — when you purchase an XP product, you don't own it, instead Microsoft owns you."

"The feature works like this:

1. You buy a copy of (say) Office XP.

2. When you install it, the installation program requires you to contact Microsoft, otherwise the program goes into "trial mode," a 50-day period after which the program is disabled. You must contact Microsoft to keep the program from shutting down.

3. On being contacted, Microsoft "authorizes" the installation. It also asks you for a lot of personal information, some of which is optional — but only the first time. Read on.

4. If you have to re-install Windows or the software because of a virus, a hardware failure or some other cause, you have to contact Microsoft again and explain why you need their permission to re-install the software. If they don't like your explanation, and in particular if they do not get your name, address, phone number, and E-mail address, you are out of luck — you must buy another copy of Office XP1.

5. If you need to make a copy of the software on another computer for a legitimate reason (say you own a desktop and a portable, but you never use them both at the same time), you are out of luck — you cannot do this. Microsoft will assume you are a criminal and refuse permission1.

6. If you decide to move your copy of XP permanently to another machine, Microsoft will not permit this, instead they will assume you are a criminal and refuse permission1.

7. If you decide to de-install and sell your copy of XP to a third party, Microsoft will not permit the new buyer to install the software, instead they will assume he is a criminal and refuse permission1.

8. If, on the other hand, you jump through all Microsoft's circus hoops, it seems you are limited to eight re-installations (some say eleven), after which you might as well throw away your expensive software. This means if your system is attacked by viruses, if your hard drive fails, or if you regularly upgrade your hardware and try to transfer your programs, you are going to be buying a lot of extra, expensive copies of Microsoft XP. "

"# Presumption of guilt. Under American law, a person is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. The XP system assumes a criminal intent, which is a violation of constitutional law, and then the software acts on this assumption, a power normally reserved to the police, which is an additional violation of law.

# Prior restraint. This idea, basically acting to prevent a crime before it is committed, is a very delicate issue in constitutional law, and because of the potential for abuse, it is rarely permitted. Absent evidence of probable cause, it is never permitted. Because there are legitimate reasons to do things not permitted by the XP software, Microsoft is engaging in prior restraint, and is thus breaking the law.

# Misrepresentation. In commerce, there are a set of assumptions about an item that is offered for sale. To put it simply, a consumer item is assumed to be suitable for its stated purpose, and this is implicit — offering the item for sale creates some assumptions that, if they turn out not to be true, are actionable. The XP software series very simply is not what it seems to be — a set of computer programs meant to serve the consumer's needs. This is false — XP only serves Microsoft's needs.

# Surveillance. By setting itself up as a moral judge of how people use their software, by micro-managing how people choose to use the XP programs, Microsoft has put into place the most insidious system of spying ever conceived in modern times. Once a consumer has experienced any version of modern-day reality — a virus that requires the software to be re-installed, one person with two computers, or who buys a new computer, or who wants to sell or donate the XP software to a third party — however these events turn out, Microsoft gets every detail, along with all your personal information. If XP comes to full flower, Microsoft will know more about you than the US Government knows or ever imagined knowing."

[bladestarr]

Oh, and I forgot to mention. This guy actually WAS a rocket scientist that worked for NASA. Yeah...

[Rett Mikhal]

Ah, my favorite subject to talk about. Fascism with a fancy new name. You'll find it occurs in daily life quite often...

The obvious points have already been said. However, I believe Spore was actually cracked a few weeks before its release. The pirated version is just far superior to the regular one.

Now, I am as anti-Digital RESTRICTION management as anyone can be. I believe having to continue owning the CD is draconian, which is why my hard drive is full of legit ISOs I made myself so I can throw the CDs in the garbage where they belong. CDs annoy me. Hard drives please me. Especially external ones. Hard drives are as infinitely hard to lose as CDs are easy. That's not my point, however, that's just why they annoy me. My point is WHY does the CD need to be on there? Some games (Sierra is good about this) allow you the option to install all the data on the HD. While I, personally, find this useless with Isos and virtual CDs, it's a step in the right direction. Especially since Brood War gets top Iso spot regardless.

Now, there is one minor problem with my madness. That is they choose to make CD Keys on the CDs themselves. Curses. BUT! This is why we invented .txt files. As well as copy and paste. So, CD keys aren't that annoying. What can be annoying is a CD key saying you can't install because you borrowed it or BOUGHT it from a friend, or you're trying to use one CD key to play on two computers on a LAN. A LAN. Local. Area. Network! Why protect me from pirates that live in MY HOUSE? I don't get it. Bungie is pretty bad about this, and Blizzard is none too kind either. Unreal Tournament, however, couldn't have given less of a crap, and I think that greatly contributed to its massive success. Many LANs were greeted by dual enforcers with open arms. Arms, get it? You should write these down.

CD keys nowadays are pretty complex. If you do the numbers out, assuming you do not know if the CD key uses letters and numbers, capitals or all uppercase, or how many characters are correct (max 20), and you could try a randomly generated one every second, it would take you about 670 sextillion years to try them all and, murphy's law in effect, exactly as long to get one right. If you know it's only Alpha or only numeric and exact number of characters, it's easier, but not always possible. The average amount of characters, alphanumeric, for a CD key is 20 in groups of 5, I believe. That's pretty tough to crack but not impossible.

However, think about it. How hard would it be to up it to, say, 40. It would take twice as long, yeah, but that's about 30-60 seconds. Big deal. With 40 characters, and lowercase as well as uppercase, it would be practically impossible to guess or crack a CD key that wasn't made by the algorithm the programmers made. To top it off, this is analog. You have to READ the key. You can't download something you read and if you're stupid enough to give your key away too bad. How is this system SO badly flawed that we've had to implement Big Brother to handle it? What's so bad about making a BETTER CD KEY CODE ALGORITHM?! Are you just so lazy you don't feel like programming a random number generator? THEN BUY ONE.

That's my two cents.

Sept 17, 2008 17:09:51 GMT -5 PoolMan said:

EA won't be around in 10 years? I would call that unlikely at best. You call EA, and ask for a reset. Pretty standard, my company does it all the time.

But even assuming one of gaming's juggernauts doesn't exist as an entity in 10 years, I'd say at that point there'll be 100 different cracks available, and no legal entity around any more to care.

(September 22nd, 2010...)

President: "Excuse me, gentlemen, but what is this 80-dollar a day nuisance sucking up our delicious profits?"
Executive: "That's the guy who answers the phone to renew CD keys for Mass Effect and Spo-"
President: "I want him fired and his family killed."

[Hucklebubba]

I recently re-installed Windows XP (carpet bombing-style solution to the problems I mentioned in the Computer Question thread), and it hasn't hassled me about authentication at all. Does this mean I'm the Chosen One?

[bladestarr]

You get "three free" installs per year with no "problems". They upped it from three EVER.

[PoolMan]

Sept 22, 2008 19:17:59 GMT -5 Rett Mikhal said:

Digital RESTRICTION management

Ah, see, at first I thought you were correcting me. But now thanks to Penny Arcade and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
]Wikipedia[/url], I know I was correct with Digial Rights Management. Didn't realize you were just being ironic.

Sept 22, 2008 21:26:04 GMT -5 @bladestarr said:

You get "three free" installs per year with no "problems". They upped it from three EVER.

Close. You get five installs, and they also implemented the ability to "de-authorize" a computer, like iTunes. You can install it on five computers, then remove it from one and free up an install to use on another.

Of course, with de-authorization, you should theoretically only need 1 install to freely use the software as you wish, within the bounds of legitimacy. Of course, people will still howl that the don't have the right to install it on 100 computers for the price of one...

[Head Mutant]

My general feeling is that if I pay for a product, I own it. I don't buy a lawnmower and then act perfectly fine if the company decides to only let me mow my lawn three times a week. So I have no problem doing whatever it takes to remove DRM on software or music that I've legally purchased.

[bladestarr]

Sept 24, 2008 14:57:46 GMT -5 Head Mutant said:

My general feeling is that if I pay for a product, I own it. I don't buy a lawnmower and then act perfectly fine if the company decides to only let me mow my lawn three times a week. So I have no problem doing whatever it takes to remove DRM on software or music that I've legally purchased.

Hear hear!

[PoolMan]

Software is not a lawnmower. It is not possible to replicate a lawnmower a hundred times so all your friends can keep one at their house courtesy of your one purchase.

Also, bear in mind, there's nothing that says the money you pay to the retailer/EA entitles you to uncontrolled access/usage of their software, only that you are paying to play it (something I think is growing ever more common in today's direct-to-drive market). On the contrary, it's very well publicized what Spore's limitations are right now.

Tell me why you can't do whatever you want with the DRM that's in place now on a retail copy of Spore.

Keep in mind, I'm hearing and agreeing with what you guys are saying, I just come from an industry where intellectual property is extremely important. (ESPECIALLY about removing DRM from something you bought... I can see wanting flexibility on a product you legally own) I am very enjoying the debate going on here, and I happen to enjoy playing Devil's Advocate.

[Rett Mikhal]

Sept 24, 2008 19:45:13 GMT -5 PoolMan said:

Software is not a lawnmower. It is not possible to replicate a lawnmower a hundred times so all your friends can keep one at their house courtesy of your one purchase.

Also, bear in mind, there's nothing that says the money you pay to the retailer/EA entitles you to uncontrolled access/usage of their software, only that you are paying to play it (something I think is growing ever more common in today's direct-to-drive market). On the contrary, it's very well publicized what Spore's limitations are right now.

Tell me why you can't do whatever you want with the DRM that's in place now on a retail copy of Spore.

Keep in mind, I'm hearing and agreeing with what you guys are saying, I just come from an industry where intellectual property is extremely important. (ESPECIALLY about removing DRM from something you bought... I can see wanting flexibility on a product you legally own) I am very much enjoying the debate going on here, and I happen to enjoy playing Devil's Advocate.

Let's bring on the REALLY geeky analogies, shall we? Huckle, join in any time.

Software is not like a lawnmower. A lawnmower is one machine designed to do one task. HOWEVER. You could be snarky and say that software is to computers what mechanical components are to machines. To wit, a computer needs software to run, just as an engine needs pistons, crankshafts, cams, and such.

On THAT note, Head Hancho has the point of correctus. Anyone else getting these obscure Age of Empire language barrier jokes? Good. I'll continue. CHOPPA!

Ahem. A piston is a device that turns expanding gas or liquid into work, or horsepower (if you're an imperial). A piston is a patented device. Heron (or Hero... if you're an imperial....) of Alexandria invented it, but it was patented thousands of years later. The knowledge of making pistons is widely published.

There is nothing stopping me from hopping on a lathe, turning a piece of roundstock until it is the correct diameter, and making a piston. Is there anything stopping me (aside from Time and Money, but those affect software as well) from making a hundred pistons so I could either have five backup lawnmowers, or one super lawnmower capable of magically calling the cops to my house? Not really, no. I bought the steel (CDs), I own the Lathe (CD burner), I have a legit copy of the patented lawnmower and its piston (the game and its code).

Why do I get the feeling the only reason copy-protection is so over-bearing in the digital world is because it's easy to enforce en masse and en jerkitude? Or anything can be copied and it's just easier to click something than to turn something on a lathe.

That one I'll agree with you. Lathes are quite the annoyance.

So where does this line between mechanical copy-righting and digital come to a stop? What if the systems merge, like in mechatronics? What if I can only use my GPS 3 times before it calls the mothership and I forgot the pin number at home, whilst I'm in deep, dark Canada searching for my lost shaker of where the hell am I? What if a computer program has over-zealous anti-pirating software and its installed into something dangerous? Like a safety containment system, or a building's fire control system. Things like that generally are install-and-forget, what if the HAL900-... DRM decided to shut off the one computer handling the fire suppression system and not tell anyone? There's no mechanical or digital signal telling you it has done that.

What about something even more simple, like a CNC program on a large machine (a train, for example) or medical records at a hospital. How, exactly, would you be able to tell the DRM what to be careful about and what not to if it's a program without moral standards?

I'd like to nominate this post with the James Cameron award of paranoia (and awesome.)

[Hucklebubba]

I especially like the part where you skirt close to implying that DRM is going to become self-aware and deliberately misanthropic.