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Post by PoolMan on Sept 26, 2008 11:11:19 GMT -5
There is nothing stopping me from hopping on a lathe, turning a piece of roundstock until it is the correct diameter, and making a piston. Is there anything stopping me (aside from Time and Money, but those affect software as well) Well, hang on there. Time and Money affect software at the developer's end. It takes practically zero time and money to copy a disc. To "hop on a lathe" (what is with all the shop metaphors, anyway?) and create your piston requires a lot of effort, especially if you're going to make a piston carefully enough to actually have it the right size and make it work. The effort involved in duplicating software is so close to nil it makes no difference. That (in my mind) is exactly what drives the software industry to DRM measures. It is so effortless to copy software (and for that matter, music, although that's another kettle of fish) that in order for the software companies to make any money, they have to implement some means of protection. To wit: the software companies only make their money from users who are willing to go along with their DRM schemes. I could either have five backup lawnmowers, or one super lawnmower capable of magically calling the cops to my house? Dude, you're talking about designing your own machine. This is more comparable to creating original software, not copying it, in which case, more power to you. Beside, you may be able to form a piston. Can you form the housing? The ignition circuit? The rest of the lawnmower? You buy lawnmowers from manufacturers because you either can't build one or don't want to spend 300 man hours building something you can buy for a hundred bucks. Same goes for software; most people aren't interested in developing their own games for their own enjoyment. There's a joy in it, sure, but they develop them to be sold. What about something even more simple, like a CNC program on a large machine (a train, for example) or medical records at a hospital. How, exactly, would you be able to tell the DRM what to be careful about and what not to if it's a program without moral standards? You're talking about industrial and safety applications. These have nothing to do with entertainment software. Nothing at all. I work in this field, and I can tell you that while there is "DRM" in a sense in place (software keys), any vendor that distributed control or safety products that worked in the fashion you describe would be out of business in less time than it took for me to write this post. The worst thing that happens when your DRM disables a user's game is you get a pissed off customer. That's hardly the same as fire suppression system quietly going offline. Why do I get the feeling the only reason copy-protection is so over-bearing in the digital world is because it's easy to enforce en masse and en jerkitude? Well, turn the question around. In this day and age, game budgets are approaching those of major film budgets (Halo 3: $30 million!) on a more regular basis. The expectation of quality (3D effects, symphonic soundtracks, celebrity voice talent) is so high that it's expensive to design a game. This is rarely an arena for the basement programmer anymore. (and keep in mind, the average price of a game hasn't moved significantly in the past 10 years!) So imagine YOU were the head of a major entertainment software developer/publisher. What would YOU do to try and recoup some of that massive budget back from a market that has decided it's easier to copy your game and not pay for it, and get them to fork over the dough? |
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Post by bladestarr on Sept 26, 2008 20:23:21 GMT -5
You know what I would do? I would design my own game MACHINES. I would bring back the Arcades. Seriously, that would solve the DRM problem for games at least, because you can't copy an arcade game unless you actually PAID $X,XXX to buy the machine. And even then it might not work unless you can emulate the hardware too.
As far as non-game software... eh, I don't know... I think Open Source really is the way to go for utility applications. I really don't think the companies promoting DRM will ever "beat" the millions of hackers out there just waiting to crack their code. It just won't happen. I'd just say give up now.
Any small companies that sell "unique" software solutions to other businesses, well that's a whole different story... I could go on for pages about that.
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Post by Head Mutant on Sept 27, 2008 8:23:23 GMT -5
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Post by PoolMan on Sept 27, 2008 10:01:53 GMT -5
You know what I would do? I would design my own game MACHINES. I would bring back the Arcades. Seriously, that would solve the DRM problem for games at least, because you can't copy an arcade game unless you actually PAID $X,XXX to buy the machine. So your solution is to not have a home gaming market at all, except for the wealthy? Okay... I think we've come to the point where I admit I don't like what's going on either. Justin's post is very effective (though I have come to expect very little of Wal Mart as an organization anyhow), and illustrates the fact that DRM is in place to protect the company, not you. I realize this. But let's be honest, I don't want to drive to an arcade to play games. I want to be able to shut down this browser window and play Portal at my convenience, in my pyjamas. Gaming in the home shouldn't mean I have to spend thousands of dollars and give up valuable space in my home for some huge box. The music industry is making strides towards a fair deal on how it sells again. iTunes may not be everyone's favourite piece of software, but it does the job pretty handily, and it allows access to individual songs at a low price, and that's all I ever wanted to see happen. I can now buy the songs I want without paying an extra $15 for the ones I don't. I'd be very, very happy if the gaming industry could come up with something similar to effectively defend itself against software theft without treating its legit customers like thieves. |
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Rett Mikhal
Ghostbuster
Shorten your stream, I don't want my face burned off!
Posts: 377
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Post by Rett Mikhal on Sept 27, 2008 10:44:38 GMT -5
There is nothing stopping me from hopping on a lathe, turning a piece of roundstock until it is the correct diameter, and making a piston. Is there anything stopping me (aside from Time and Money, but those affect software as well) Well, hang on there. Time and Money affect software at the developer's end. It takes practically zero time and money to copy a disc. To "hop on a lathe" (what is with all the shop metaphors, anyway?) and create your piston requires a lot of effort, especially if you're going to make a piston carefully enough to actually have it the right size and make it work. The effort involved in duplicating software is so close to nil it makes no difference. Ah, but that is where CNC comes in, my friend. It could take hours or months to program a CNC machine to make a complete piston assembly. Once it is programmed, a CNC programmed machine can make the assembly in a matter of minutes. Same goes for a computer program. A series of machines embeds the game onto a blank CD. The programmers took a long time making the game, but it can still be massively copied and sold as such. That (in my mind) is exactly what drives the software industry to DRM measures. It is so effortless to copy software (and for that matter, music, although that's another kettle of fish) that in order for the software companies to make any money, they have to implement some means of protection. This still doesn't rebut the point that patents can be easily overridden and no one seems to care, nor the idea that better CD keys would fix the problem. Hell, USB cameras are cheap these days. Why not just include a very simple one (5 extra dollars) that plugs and plays, and reads a barcode on the CD or Box? I'll give it to you eventually someone would figure out to crack it, but I think it's a non-totalitarian solution that would deter a lot of common pirates simply out of fear of headache. That's why I hate DRM. It doesn't make it HARD to crack, it makes it so you FEAR your own machine. I will fear my own machine when it can easily overpower me (as XKCD pointed out, it's just a few steps away) thank you ever much. Dude, you're talking about designing your own machine. This is more comparable to creating original software, not copying it, in which case, more power to you. Beside, you may be able to form a piston. Can you form the housing? The ignition circuit? The rest of the lawnmower? You buy lawnmowers from manufacturers because you either can't build one or don't want to spend 300 man hours building something you can buy for a hundred bucks. No, I'm talking about designing a way to copy a machine that has already been invented; reverse engineering. I'm sure pirates spend hundreds of man hours trying to crack software and then the virus hunters spend a hundred more figuring out how to lure people in with their new bait. There's significant differences (reverse engineering is done so you can take a product that exists and improve it, not copy it completely) but I think the analogy is similar enough. You're talking about industrial and safety applications. These have nothing to do with entertainment software. Nothing at all. I work in this field, and I can tell you that while there is "DRM" in a sense in place (software keys), any vendor that distributed control or safety products that worked in the fashion you describe would be out of business in less time than it took for me to write this post. The worst thing that happens when your DRM disables a user's game is you get a pissed off customer. That's hardly the same as fire suppression system quietly going offline. As we've already noted, DRM has spread far beyond entertainment. Windows has it, how long before turnkey computer systems have it, then entire computer networks? I'd imagine the companies that make the security or industrial software spend a lot of money developing it. How long before the executives weigh profits over human life and figure out which one they want more? I think you seriously underestimate the short-sightedness and ignorance of customer opinion displayed by the majority of companies. And humans in general. Why do I get the feeling the only reason copy-protection is so over-bearing in the digital world is because it's easy to enforce en masse and en jerkitude? Well, turn the question around. In this day and age, game budgets are approaching those of major film budgets (Halo 3: $30 million!) on a more regular basis. The expectation of quality (3D effects, symphonic soundtracks, celebrity voice talent) is so high that it's expensive to design a game. This is rarely an arena for the basement programmer anymore. (and keep in mind, the average price of a game hasn't moved significantly in the past 10 years!) So imagine YOU were the head of a major entertainment software developer/publisher. What would YOU do to try and recoup some of that massive budget back from a market that has decided it's easier to copy your game and not pay for it, and get them to fork over the dough? I like how Steam has handled it. Make slightly shorter games, released more often and for cheaper, and make them downloadable. That's a winning formula in my opinion. No messy CDs, only requires the internet to play (with an offline single player option if you so insist, of course), and cheap. So cheap you'd be a fool to waste 100 hours cracking it and 100 more cracking a server to play cracked versions on. Apparently the solution to pollution is dilution. You know what I would do? I would design my own game MACHINES. I would bring back the Arcades. Seriously, that would solve the DRM problem for games at least, because you can't copy an arcade game unless you actually PAID $X,XXX to buy the machine. So your solution is to not have a home gaming market at all, except for the wealthy? Okay... I think we've come to the point where I admit I don't like what's going on either. Justin's post is very effective (though I have come to expect very little of Wal Mart as an organization anyhow), and illustrates the fact that DRM is in place to protect the company, not you. I realize this. But let's be honest, I don't want to drive to an arcade to play games. I want to be able to shut down this browser window and play Portal at my convenience, in my pyjamas. Gaming in the home shouldn't mean I have to spend thousands of dollars and give up valuable space in my home for some huge box. The music industry is making strides towards a fair deal on how it sells again. iTunes may not be everyone's favourite piece of software, but it does the job pretty handily, and it allows access to individual songs at a low price, and that's all I ever wanted to see happen. I can now buy the songs I want without paying an extra $15 for the ones I don't. I'd be very, very happy if the gaming industry could come up with something similar to effectively defend itself against software theft without treating its legit customers like thieves. ...Ok, you win the argument. I wholly embrace DRM. I will now go to my store, buy Spore, and put EA on speed dial. I would much rather live in a world with DRM than a world of iGames. Why, you ask? Glad you did, and if you didn't, too bad. The world today: iTunes: "Welcome to iTunes. In order to prevent piracy, we require you to download in our format and use only our player to play the music you download." You, the consumer: "Well, I guess that's fair. I can adapt." 2010: iGames: "Welcome to iGames. In order to prevent piracy, we require you to play the games you have downloaded only on this computer and only in these video/graphic settings. If you require or wish for any modifications to the core gameplay, you may buy them for 99 cents." You, the user: "Well, that's cheap enough. It used to be free and I could choose but at least it works." 2025: iBrother: "Welcome to iBrother. It is now 1600 hours. The time to play video games is now until 1700 hours. Then you will submit to cloning procedure until 1800 hours to further our will and bolster our ranks. For the master Race!" You, the slave: "Yes, iGod." |
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Post by PoolMan on Sept 28, 2008 11:35:06 GMT -5
Ah, but that is where CNC comes in, my friend. It could take hours or months to program a CNC machine to make a complete piston assembly. It would take months. To program a CNC machine (a technology I do understand to a point but isn't the be-all you seem to think it is) to machine a device would take a loooooong time to do, not to mention the fact that you have to have the CNC plus all the physical machinery to have it carry out the work. THIS is easier than buying the thing you're trying to replicate? Besides, I think my argument was too specific. This is not about lawnmowers, this is about physical products versus software. My point was copying software is effortless compared to copying physical products of almost any kind, especially those mechanical in nature. This still doesn't rebut the point that patents can be easily overridden and no one seems to care, nor the idea that better CD keys would fix the problem. Agreed. Completely. Hell, USB cameras are cheap these days. Why not just include a very simple one (5 extra dollars) that plugs and plays, and reads a barcode on the CD or Box? I'll give it to you eventually someone would figure out to crack it, but I think it's a non-totalitarian solution that would deter a lot of common pirates simply out of fear of headache. Like you said, USB cameras are cheap, and I know of at least two websites where you can code any information into barcodes. Cracked. (all you've really done is replace the means via which you input the key code... that changes nothing) reverse engineering is done so you can take a product that exists and improve it, not copy it completely What does that have to do with what we're talking about? I think you seriously underestimate the short-sightedness and ignorance of customer opinion displayed by the majority of companies. And humans in general. No, I don't hold any illusions about that. No corporation cares about me, the individual. None of them. And a PO'ed little old me is not a big deal to them, so long as there's a hundred paying customers behind them. I like how Steam has handled it. So do I, but Steam games still get cracked. you'd be a fool to waste 100 hours cracking it and 100 more cracking a server to play cracked versions on. Isn't that what I said about duplicating physical products? Besides, when it comes to software, some people genuinely only do it for the fun of beating the DRM. 2025: iBrother: "Welcome to iBrother. It is now 1600 hours. The time to play video games is now until 1700 hours. Then you will submit to cloning procedure until 1800 hours to further our will and bolster our ranks. For the master Race!" You, the slave: "Yes, iGod." I think you're the one doing the underestimating now. If you think a free market will allow such complete restrictions, well, you're the biggest pessimist I ever knew. So, you've suggested one copy restriction technique which would fall over in the hour it would take me to get the USB device you propose, how would you protect your product now? |
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Post by bladestarr on Sept 29, 2008 4:03:33 GMT -5
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Post by PoolMan on Sept 29, 2008 10:52:52 GMT -5
I've been LOVING the PA comics on this. Very amusing.
Ladies and gentlemen, Elton John!
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DTH
Ghostbuster
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Posts: 582
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Post by DTH on Oct 7, 2008 7:25:08 GMT -5
Just going to add my £0.02p. I am not a pirate and am anti-piracy, in theory. I prefer to own original CDs and DVDs etc. I fully respect that companies produce things and sell them for my consumption and entertainment. They do things that I couldn't and I am happy to give them my money. And yet, there's the issue of privacy and of medium control, which are very very real. I 100% respect a company that goes ahead and makes a game/OS/film/album and then sells it. They deserve to make money from it. They also deserve to protect their profits and ensure that their company will continue to thrive. I find it difficult to see how people can argue against CD keys etc when it comes to a company protecting its product. What I can totally get on board with is this thing where software goes that one step further from protection to control. The iTunes thing is a perfect example of security/protection going one step further than necessary. Vista (and its rumoured in-built spyware*) is another. Things like EA's protection with Spore and Steam for HL2... they are a bit of a grey area. I think I side with Poolman on this, however, in that I don't really see it as that much of a problem. What I don't want is some company getting data it has no right to or limiting my options based on my purchases. For this reason, I have resisted Vista and certainly won't touch iTunes. Which is my decision and I appreciate that its no big deal to either Apple or Microsoft. That sounds more reactionary than I intended, reading back, but however I put it, it amounts to the same thing: I am happy to pay for legitimate software/movies/music but disagree with companies that put clauses/software on my purchases. If I buy a CD, I should be able to listen to that CD when I like on whatever format I like. That said, I find the retail price of a lot these products to be very restrictive, especially during a time of recession and financial difficulty. Does this mean that I turn to piracy? No. What it means is that I buy discounted products. I'm happy to wait 6 months to a year to get AvP2 for £6 instead of £15 or that KoRn CD for £4. Rock Band was the last game I purchased at full price and that was mainly to get the instruments. I bought Too Human and that was for £30 from Woolworths (it was £40 everywhere else and 2 weeks later, it was £20 in EVERY shop...). My point really is, there are other options than piracy. And yet, I need to be honest: I do use Bittorrents to obtain things that I ordinarily couldn't. Is it legal? No. For instance, I like U.S. football and support the Atlanta Falcons. In the 13 years I've been following them, I've see ONE of their games. There is simply NO WAY for me as a resident of the United Kingdom to see any of their matches as they just aren't televised over here. So I obtain downloaded copies of their games (and the U.S. coverage is FAR superior to the UK coverage) and love every minute of it. Would I pay for this service if it was available? Damn right I would. But I genuinely have no other way of obtaining these games. Does that justify my actions? To me, sure, how else would I sleep at night?  But, I ask myself, if I had to stand up in a Court of law and submit my plea? I'd plead guilty. I'd have to, I have no defense! I'm sorry if that makes me a hypocrite. Ultimately, I guess everyone has to ask themselves what their real beef is? How much money these companies make/how much they charge for their products? Is it increasingly annoying/invasive security tools? Is it paying for substandard products (which is a huge criticism I have of computer games that require patches upon general release!)? Or is it something else? *this is second hand information and I am sure there are people who can clear it up for me. |
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Rett Mikhal
Ghostbuster
Shorten your stream, I don't want my face burned off!
Posts: 377
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Post by Rett Mikhal on Oct 8, 2008 15:49:55 GMT -5
See, my argument stems from the nature of my sometimes dipping into the darkside; I like old games. DOS based games will always be far superior to windows in my opinion (there are exceptions, of course, but I find good graphics are always a crutch).
The problem is finding these games. Sierra is infamous for their habit of forgetting about a game as soon as they release it (sometimes leaving games in half numbers of version, like version 0.80 or 1.24). It's very annoying to find these games.
Now I could pay for them... on Ebay... Frankly I'd rather just look them up on abandonware and torrent sites. Does Sierra lose any money? No. They already sold the game to those people/stores trying to sell it, and most likely the stores still have it because it was returned. It's the same with old Nintendo games... they only release the OBSCENELY popular ones on VC and I already bought those when I was a kid. If a games ridiculously awesome, I'll buy it legit (I've bought Lufia II, StarCraft, Sid Meyer's Gettysburg and Dues Ex no less than three times a piece).
The same goes for old versions of things. Do you know how hard it is to find Unreal Tournament, the first ("No bloody A, B, C, or D!"), and not the million horrible sequels that came later? It's impossible, without Ebay, and I don't feel like buying something that more than likely won't work (due to years of mishandling, CDs are fragile things) and legitimately isn't supposed to be sold by non-retail, when I can get an unreal tournament.exe with no messy CDs. Does Epic games lose money? No. Do the Ebay stores lose money? No, they'll sell other things. Ebay isn't about people anymore, it's the stores... but that's a discussion of another color.
So what happens in 20 years if I want to play Spore and no one has it, or someone does have it for a buck and the CD key has been used so many times it doesn't work. Will EA still give me a bone? No. They won't even know what I'm asking for cause that phone extension on their dial menu will have long sense been deleted.
That's my problem with these intrusive copy protections. They lock everyone out down the road to lock out a few pirates now... and even that they don't seem to do.
Also, you bring up the good point of quality of the game. I recently download the latest Leisure Suit Larry, Magna Cum Laude and it is AWFUL. One of the worst games I have ever played. They took the adventure aspect (problem solving, item using, clever puzzle gameplay) and replaced it with dumbed-down, awful minigames with terrible controls and voice acting. Not to mention the graphics look like an episode of Jimmy Neutron... with breasts...
Deleted. I'm glad I didn't waste 40 bucks on it. Now I only downloaded it because I read a plethora of terrible reviews about the game and I just had to see the car wreck for myself. Kinda like Manos, Hands of Fate... eventually the temptation to see the definition of crap is too much.
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Post by PoolMan on Oct 9, 2008 12:41:52 GMT -5
Quality of the game is very important, I agree, but we live in an age where the day a game comes out (and sometimes before) there are multiple reviews available to the player immediately. If you read up on a game that is unanimously proclaimed of the stinky variety and go ahead and buy it anyway, whose fault is that?
But I digress. We all seem to have come to a loose agreement that software companies need money to operate, and that good software is worth paying for. What we need is a mechanism of protecting proprietary info/games without stunting the life of the software or treating paying customers like crooks.
Still waiting for suggestions on this...
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Post by Al on Oct 30, 2008 15:13:09 GMT -5
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DARTHMADLER
Boomstick Coordinator
WARNING: Low Overhang
Posts: 215
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Post by DARTHMADLER on Jan 12, 2009 16:11:53 GMT -5
Once again crawling out of my cave into the blinding sunlight (yes it's the dead of winter-work with me here) to bring up
The Twist
I just got back from EB Games having unsuccessfully tried to sell them some PC games.
Why, you might ask? Apparently because of the limited number of activations allowed they don't want to accept games on the off chance that the activations have been used up. As well as they claim that certain games have a one time online activation that is non-transferable.
So while all the console jockeys can buy, sell and trade games to their hearts content, I the PC Gamer am stuck.
Given that consoles are integrating with the internet more and more I can imagine it will only be a matter of time till this practice is applied to those as well.
So now, even though I have bought a game, I can't even trade it for another game.
Is this right?
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Post by PoolMan on Jan 12, 2009 22:16:00 GMT -5
Heh... what, because you may have used a license up, you can't take it to the pawn shop? (I tend to agree with Tycho's assessment of EB and Gamestop as upscale pawn shops, in as much as I still spend my money there)
No, it isn't right. And yours is the first complaint along those lines I've ever heard. But it's also not surprising. The last thing the EB owner wants is to be stuck with a game he can't make yet another 70% margin on.
Interesting... I've never noticed, does EB even have a used PC section?
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DARTHMADLER
Boomstick Coordinator
WARNING: Low Overhang
Posts: 215
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Post by DARTHMADLER on Jan 13, 2009 15:21:46 GMT -5
Yes, in a supreme bit of irony, one of the games I tried to trade was one I bought from them used.
I also can't help noticing how much their PC section shrinks everytime I go there. I think they find it too much hassle to sell them.
The last time I tried to buy a new PC Game from them they couldn't sell it to me. They separated the disk and manual from the case for theft protection. While they could find the disk and case, they couldn't find the manual with the CD Key.
I still wonder how far off the day is when console games will also require online activation to use.
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But, I ask myself, if I had to stand up in a Court of law and submit my plea? I'd plead guilty. I'd have to, I have no defense!
