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Post by PoolMan on Mar 23, 2004 11:52:07 GMT -5
Rather than derail another thread, I figured I'd start a new one. Basically, I'm looking for public input on the following:
Is Dragonball Z not comprised of entirely the same elements as pro wrestling?
Consider that both forms of "entertainment" feature...
- overly muscled male characters and ditzy female characters who engage in battle
- long, drawn out storylines that can take an age to resolve, assuming they ever DO get resolved
- the actual Talking to Battle Ratio is somewhere in the range of about 3:1 (and that's being generous, to both parties)
- the talking portion mostly consists of two or more combatants squaring off, ridiculing each others' abilities, and bragging about their own
- the Battle portion mostly consists of the same parties who have been flapping their gums fighting for an exceptionally short amount of time
As far as I can tell, the only main differences that exist are:
- in pro wrestling, the characters often switch allegiances
- in DBZ, the characters often are green and can regrow arms
Discuss.
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Post by FiveMileSmile on Mar 23, 2004 12:06:54 GMT -5
You know, I was going to try and fight my corner. I was going to try and maintain a little dignity.
But all my fight is gone out of me. I will endure whatever mockery you choose to heap on one of my many forms of entertainment, and cry quietly in the corner while watching my ECW DVD's.
- Rich
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Post by PoolMan on Mar 23, 2004 12:35:23 GMT -5
Well, no, I want you to offer me a good reason why I get EXACTLY the same skin crawlies from DBZ as I do from WWF WWE. They should, in nearly all respects, attract the same audiences, and I suspect there's a ton of crossover.
But of course, as I'm sure you realize, this thread is tailor made for you, Rich, because you're so into the big sweaty men who rant at each other for a half hour before fighting for two minutes, but you're NOT into the big eyed Saiyans who rant at each other for a half hour before fighting for two minutes. I just want to know what the difference is.
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Post by DarthToad on Mar 23, 2004 21:53:05 GMT -5
This gives me a thought, what if you mixed the two together? Trailer trash + anime nerds=um...help... Well, it would be a live action show with a lot of CGI animation, coloring of people's skins, and it would be in an arena, and there'd be some sort of "plot" involved. Yeah, something like that.
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Post by FiveMileSmile on Mar 24, 2004 5:10:54 GMT -5
You know, I wasn't going to rise to this. I really wasn't. I know when I'm being baited. But you got me just irritated enough to make yet another full throated defense of myself and this sport, even though there's no earthly reason why I should. And the reason I'm irritated is that your "comparative similarities" between the two are based pretty much on a completely ignorant platform, at least as far as wrestling is concerned; I can't really talk about DBZ much as I don't think I've ever watched an episode all the way through. That, incidentally, was another reason I was loathe to take up this gauntlet; I don't really know enough about DBZ to speak with authority on it. I have some friends who watch it, and I've seen bits and pieces now and again, but I'm not familiar with the product particularly. So, lets wide hip deep into the chemically treated sewage of this argument shall we? Well, there's no denying that this is true for both shows. Personally, I find fault with the comparison simply because if it were as easy as drawing your physique in real life, I'd have the body of an adonis, and so would everyone else. The reason most pro-wrestlers are in good shape in pretty much down to the fact that they can often spend between 15-30 minutes picking up and throwing around another 200+ pound man and being repeatedly landing hard on their back and shoulders. And whether you want to admit it or not (and my guess is not, because traditionally everyone who casually mocks wrestling somehow believes that there's absolutely no effort involved) the guys in pro-wrestling are genuine athletes who train exceptionally hard; and personally, I respect that more than the dubious artistic skills of the Japanese animators on DBZ. Well, heaven forbid that a serialised form of entertainment with a weekly format have a plot which runs over a number of shows  Down with soap operas and TV dramas as well, say I. Your problem here (and in this entire argument) is that your comments are based on a seemlingly very casual awareness of only the most mainstream wrestling product. Are some of the plots (called angles in pro-wrestling speak) in the WWE stupid and over the top? I wont deny that. On the other hand, they don't ever involve 14 year old kids with psychic powers flying through the universe to combat an unspeakable evil. And just like any other entertainment medium, I absolutely guarantee you that pro-wrestling has produced some absolutely compelling storylines which have gripped their audience as tightly as any well plotted story arc from The West Wing or Buffy or any other TV show. Now, I can't comment on the storylines for DBZ because I know exceptionally little about it; but what turns me off about it is simply the incredibly simplistic repetitious formula of 'heros get beat up, heros power up, heros win'. Wrestling, for all its faults, has way more than one story to tell, and unlike a majority of tv shows, bad guys are allowed to win as well, which adds an element of unpredictability to the plots that you're not going to get from DBZ. Utter nonsense. Get a stopwatch and watch WWE RAW this week. No more than 25% of the show will be used for promo spots, sometimes less than that. Essentially, you pretty much invented that statistic out of the clear blue sky. Is there talking on the show? Yes, because its pretty hard to get an angle established properly without some dialogue. But the majority of every show will be wrestling. And for those of you thinking that wrestling promos are still "WRAGAGAGAGAGAGA ILL KILL YOU WRAGAGAGA" you need to step out of the 1980's and understand that many wrestlers nowadays recieve plaudits not only for their wrestling talents, but for their speaking ability too (laugh all you want, its absolutely true). The dialogue level (and plotting) on DBZ on the other hand are at the same level as He-Man was when I was 8. And I'd say your 3:1 ration here was probably right. And I've watched 10 minutes of an episode where all it involved was one of the dragonball crew going "aaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGHHHHH!" while cutting between him and someone else. If you step into this machine, it will whisk you out of 1987 and back to 2004, where the majority of wrestling angles have very little to do with that. Did you know that the WWE has a team of hollywood scriptwriters backstage concocting angles? And while I'm not saying you're not gonna see a guy come out and say "I'm the best, you're not" because you are, there will pretty much always be some context for those comments. Besides, even though everyone knows wrestling is pre-determined, for 60 years it billed itself as a 'sport' (sports entertainment came in the mid 90's) and the "I'm better than you" argument is a holdover from that, because without the suspension of disbelief (after all, Buffy is just a bunch of actors going around not hitting extras) wrestling seems pretty pointless. In contrast, I have no idea what the squaring off process between DBZ combatants involves apart from the aforementioned aaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGHHHHH!. Well, thats a function of economics in wrestling more than anything else. If you've got 20 guys on your show, and you want to get them all on TV in a 1 hour show, that means you can allow a maximum of 6 minutes per match. And amazingly, the WWE has more than 20 people on its roster. As a rule, the people the crowd are less interested in (those lower down the card) will get at most 5 minutes for thier matches. Those higher up will get 10-15, and the Main Event for the show will sometimes run as long as 20 minutes. At big pay per view events, matches can often go 30-45 minutes, and even over an hour in special cases. My experience with DBZ fights is that they last about 300 frames of animation and about 30 seconds. So easily comparable The bottom line is that I find wrestling, especially good wrestling (which pretty much rules out most of the wwe programming) entertaining to watch, because it requires a large amount of skill and training to do it night in night out, and make it look good, and get the crowd excited about it. I respect the people that are able to do that. I get nothing out of DBZ because the bottom line is that its a cartoon intended for 8 year olds; I would probably have liked it when I was 8; but not I'm 27 its got nothing for me, and I have a hard time understanding how someone in their teens, let alone of my age, could still find it entertaining. Happy now? - Rich |
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Post by Head Mutant on Mar 24, 2004 10:09:17 GMT -5
...just glad Pooly has a different target for his pent-up frustration at being born a Vancouverian for the moment...
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Post by PoolMan on Mar 24, 2004 12:42:25 GMT -5
traditionally everyone who casually mocks wrestling somehow believes that there's absolutely no effort involved Well, there's no denying there's a ton of effort involved, and that there's a great degree of skill. I agree, that's commonly the naysayer's path, but I've seen enough wrestling to know that even for a staged event, it requires an awful lot of genuine hard work on the part of the athletes (I called them athletes!) to put together. Your problem here (and in this entire argument) is that your comments are based on a seemlingly very casual awareness of only the most mainstream wrestling product. Admittedly true. In terms of the most recent forms of pro wrestling, I'm only casually familiar. I haven't seriously followed wrestling in ten years or more, and the modern day stuff does tend to send me scurrying rather quickly. But when I ever HAVE tuned in to see what's different, I'm sorry, but I'm amazed at how little has changed. Aside from the fact that it used to be acceptable entertainment for kids, and now it's full of sex, booze, and foul language. On the other hand, they don't ever involve 14 year old kids with psychic powers flying through the universe to combat an unspeakable evil. Haha. Yeah. Psychic kids with monkey tails. It's worth reiterating at this point that I'm not debasing wrestling in favour of DBZ. I have little respect for either. Essentially, you pretty much invented that statistic out of the clear blue sky. Well... that's not entirely true. I have tried to remember the statistic that I read in a news piece on the WWE about a year ago, stating that in an hour long wrestling program, there was usually something along the lines of 9 minutes of actual wrestling. The rest was divided amongst promos, "angles", and commercials. I do apologize for the innaccuracy; it's dangerous to throw a statistic out when you don't know exactly the numbers behind it. I shall endeavor to see if I can locate the article. However, I would challenge you with this: does it not seem to you that there's a much higher yap to wrestling ratio now than ten years ago? many wrestlers nowadays recieve plaudits not only for their wrestling talents, but for their speaking ability too (laugh all you want, its absolutely true). Hey, I'll go along with that. I certainly can't argue against it. But I've never heard of these laurels. The dialogue level (and plotting) on DBZ on the other hand are at the same level as He-Man was when I was 8. Hehehe... it's true, it's true. Did you know that the WWE has a team of hollywood scriptwriters backstage concocting angles? I'm trying to understand how this is a positive.  it requires a large amount of skill and training to do it night in night out, and make it look good, and get the crowd excited about it. I respect the people that are able to do that. In that context, I do too, especially having had some recent experience in live theater. The physical aspect is truly demanding. The dramatic aspect is usually where the whole thing falls apart in my eyes. But that's the thing about opinion. Obviously there's enough people out there who agree with you and disagree with me, or there wouldn't be a WWE. Now, don't be that way. I don't deny there's a fair amount of bait in my first post, but mostly I was just trying to point out the similarities, not just blast you unintelligently. I find both forms of entertainment to be similar, that's all, and I don't think I'm alone. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to see if I can figure out any logic whatsoever for the suffixes Justin applies to city names to apply to their denizens... "Vancouverians"? |
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BDC
Ghostbuster
Posts: 372
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Post by BDC on Mar 25, 2004 2:18:47 GMT -5
I love you, RICH!
Oh, btw Pooly, a few things. (Note: yes the quotes are disjointed, I replied in a very unorthodox manner, or something)
First, don't quote Kurt Angle without proper training.
-An aside to Rich, wasn't Angle in the building of his feud with Guerrero just absolutely incredible? I'd love to see that more.
Perhaps that's true, but your wrestling also, even in a 3 to 5 minute match, doesn't suck nearly as much as it did in the 80's. Quality action, even rushed, beats long drawn out "hillbilly versus police officer."
Okay, as for a year ago, the writers had this conception that every show had to start with a twenty minute interview. On the Monday show it was Triple H and on the Thursday show, it was Stephanie McMahon. Throw in some Vince for flavor and you get two minutes matches with a five minute main event.
Thankfully, they seem to have at least tried to move beyond that.
Again, the passing familiarity Rich spoke of. Guys like Billy Kidman can compete well. Their lack of a way to connect with the crowd, be it in-ring charisma (Rey Mysterio, Rob Van Dam, even Paul London) or microphone time (Booker T) severely hampers your career if you're WWE affiliated. Some are gifted in both ways, like Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle and so on. (I'd put Chris Benoit in this group myself, but I'm in the minority.)
Okay, let's differentiate for a second. These guys get training to grapple in the ring in whatever style they're good at. They don't get training when it comes to dramatic presentation, yet some of them do it very well. Your levels of expectation are pretty high if you're expecting Shakespere out of these people, and honestly, it's completely unfair to them. If you debase what they do as a whole on something that is meant to build towards another aspect instead of being the focus, then it's like me bashing a race car driver for having an ugly car. It's not the point, just a means of getting there.
Ahem, RAWR!
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Post by FiveMileSmile on Mar 25, 2004 6:59:01 GMT -5
-An aside to Rich, wasn't Angle in the building of his feud with Guerrero just absolutely incredible? I'd love to see that more. Hooray for the cavalry! The angle which BDC is talking about is a great example of how much wrestling angles have progressed from the Dark Days. Our protagonist is Eddie Guerro. Eddie is a really talented wrestler, and very respected in the business, but due to personal problems and the fact that he's never really been seen as "championship" material, he's never been given a run 'on top' with the top championship in the company. Eddie has also (in real life) struggled with alcoholism and drug allegations, and came back from a real scandal and worked his way back up through the ranks again. Finally, in February, Eddies dreams came true as he won the top championship in the company. Our antagonist is Olympic Gold Medal winner Kurt Angle. Kurt is arguably one of the top 3 guys ever in the sport, both as a wrestler and an entertainer. Angle is the clean cut, all american role model of the show, and traditionally popular with the crowd. But when Eddie became champion, things changed. Angle appeared on TV, claiming that Eddie shouldn't be champion, because as champion, he was a representative of the whole company; and Eddies past, and his tendency to use "unorthodox" methods to win (he cheats a lot) were making the entire company look bad. The crowd, who are firmly behind Eddie as the champion, don't know what to make of Angle's (another crowd favourite) statement. As the weeks wear on, Angle relentlessly pursues Eddies title by any means necessary; mercilessly beating him while handcuffed, attacking him without provocation, and making deals with some of the most hated people on the roster just to get Eddies title away from him, all the while telling the audience that they'll thank him eventually, once they have a champion they can respect again. Eddie in turn refuses to apologise for his past, saying that he has worked hard to wash away the stains on his record, and the fact that he's champion proved that. The intensity of the rivaly between them was great, and it built to an absolutely fantastic psychological and physical confrontation, aided by the fact that Eddie and Angle are both in the top 5 of everyone wrestling in the WWE in terms of ability. Its a pretty far cry from the "I hate you warrrrghghghgh!" from the 80's. And BDC; yep, it was wonderful, and I have big hopes for an interesting continuation of that angle considering the events of this weeks RAW and Smackdown... - Rich |
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Post by PoolMan on Mar 25, 2004 12:06:32 GMT -5
Aha! My twin nemeses, Huffery AND Puffery! First, don't quote Kurt Angle without proper training. I did what now? Quality action, even rushed, beats long drawn out "hillbilly versus police officer." Well then I guess that's where our opinions differ. I quite liked the ridiculous aspects of wrestling as a kid. Actually, that's probably where the root of my dislike for the WWE's dramatics lie, is that all of a sudden the whole thing takes itself so seriously. Whatever happened to the JYD and Koko B Ware and all the goofy characters? Now it's all soap opera seriousness. Okay, as for a year ago, the writers had this conception that every show had to start with a twenty minute interview. So I wasn't totally out to lunch. Thank you. Your levels of expectation are pretty high if you're expecting Shakespere out of these people Oh I don't. I really don't. All I know is I occasionally try to tune in, I see a big sweaty guy speaking in long, drawn out sentences into a microphone while some commentator adds his insights in the pauses, and I just can't stick with it. It seems so inane. Hahaha... oh BDC, you crack me up. ;D ANYWAYS. I think you guys are missing the point. I didn't want to write an anti-wrestling diatribe, despite the fact that I know how you could read it that way. I wrote that DBZ resembles WWE in my mind, a point which Rich attempted to debase somewhat, and BDC didn't at all. So. Yes. |
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BDC
Ghostbuster
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Post by BDC on Mar 25, 2004 15:18:59 GMT -5
Hehehe, I know. My whole thing? I attacked one part of your statement without the whole thing. Ah, who am I kidding, I was trying to convert you.  As for Eddie and Kurt, illustrative purposes:  |
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Post by Hucklebubba on Mar 25, 2004 17:52:23 GMT -5
I'd like to mention that Kurt Angle's last name, and the wrestling term "angle" could make for some uproarious wordplay. There. I have mentioned. ...then it's like me bashing a race car driver for having an ugly car Is the hypothetical ugly car still fast? Sorry. Sometimes I get a little too involved in metaphors. |
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Vorlina
Boomstick Coordinator
I'm perfectly happy with my medication levels, thank you
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Post by Vorlina on Mar 27, 2004 6:14:23 GMT -5
Consider that both forms of "entertainment" feature... - long, drawn out storylines that can take an age to resolve, assuming they ever DO get resolved - the actual Talking to Battle Ratio is somewhere in the range of about 3:1 (and that's being generous, to both parties) - the talking portion mostly consists of two or more combatants squaring off, ridiculing each others' abilities, and bragging about their own - the Battle portion mostly consists of the same parties who have been flapping their gums fighting for an exceptionally short amount of time Do you know, that sounds remarkably like Shakespeare to me....? Rich-baiting. New Olympic category. |
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Down with soap operas and TV dramas as well, say I.
