RotK

[DocD83]

For whatever reason I can't reply to the other RotK spoiler thread...I don't see anything saying it's been locked...oh well.

ALOT of the races are related, and intermingled to create other races (i.e. the Elves being half man, half god-like-characters-whose-name-of-the-race-I-cannot-remember-right-now). The "wizards" themselves are also a seperate race, not men, I believe they are called Vanir (sort of angels), but I might be wrong. Even Aragorn is not entirely human, he is also part another, more "divine" race, n-something-or-other (nuemor?)

[cracks knuckles] Elves are not half-man at all (with a couple exceptions). Tolkien's ethereal world consists of a singular creator god, and two classes of Ainur: Valar (the higher ranked ones) and Maiar. The Elves were created to basically be the servants of the Maiar and to prepare Earth for Humanity. They were around long before humans. The Wizards, or Istari, are Maiar incarnate sent by the Valar to muster the people of Middle Earth against Sauron. There were only five: one white, one grey, one brown and two blue. Aragorn is Numenorean. An entirely Human race (he's not, most are) but blessed for their part in various goings-on in the previous age. They were master mariners, and you might have noticed the seagull motif on the Gondorian helmets and the ship's bow design of the Citadel.

everyone saw Eowyn lay down the s**t on the Nazgul, and was in awe of her bad ass-ness. Which helps her since after Theoden died she rules Rohan. But in the movie no one saw it (though maybe that scene is different in the EE).

I thought they did see it, they were just hanging back.

Aragorn has some elf blood in him (no bad puns, please). Elrond is his great-great-many times over uncle. Elrond and Aragorn's distant ancestor (Elros?) had a human father and an elven mother (though I think it's even more complicated than that).

Aragorn is descended from Elros brother of Elrond, born of the human Earendil and the elf Elwing, Elwing being the grandaughter of the human Beren and the elf Luthien, Luthien being descended from the elf Thingol and the maia Melian. So Aragorn has everything in him but Dwarf and Ent. (There are three family trees in the back of my Silmarillion describing the descent of Elrond and Elros, and I don't understand them entirely.)

Plus, he [Faramir] needs something to do--now that Aragorn has returned, there's no need for him to steward Gondor. So he can go back to Rohan w/ Eowyn (though wouldn't her brother rule Rohan? I'm confused).

I think Faramir was given lordship of Ithilien, the strip of land between the the river Anduin and the mountains forming the western border or Mordor.

the sword he was using was really old and was forged by some people who first had to fight against the Witch-King

It was made by the Numenoreans. Their nothern kingdom on Middle Earth (their main kingdom was a separate continent) was called Arnor and they fought a lot with Angmar even further to the north. Lots of swords in Tolkien do special things depending on who made them...the Elven Sting works wonders on spiders, Glamdring beats the crap outta Balrogs, the Dwarves made a dagger that could cleave iron effortlessly, and Arnor made things to beat Angmar.

Well, it's kind of hard to call them "villans." Doesn't Sauron & Co. convince them that Gondor and it's allies have taken their land, killed their people, and oppressed them, and that this is a way to redeem themselves? So it was Gondor who created the tensions, and Sauron whipping them up into a frenzy.

Faramir does have that speech in TT where he wonders if the guys were truly evil or if they were forced into military service. I remember thinking that is NOT the kind of thing you want to say to a bunch of soldiers ambushing enemies.

Small rant coming up:
About Tolkien being rascist or whatever....I don't think so. He already had established the story in a tiny corner of the world, and filled it with white people (understandably so, since he's white). Then he needed Sauron to muster forces from...where? The big gray area he hasn't touched yet, of course. Then he had to decide to make them all white and shut out the modern racial diversity (honestly, would you be happy with that?), cram in the other races to what he had already written (can you say "headache"?), or just say the Easterlings looked asian and the Haradrim looked black. Given the anti-hate themes he had between peoples who were truly different (the whole Legolas/Gimli thing), this kind of talk always makes me a bit wary--it always makes me think that someone is scrounging for anything to justify their own hatred.

end rant

Oh, almost forgot to ask...did Pippin kill a troll in this movie? I remember he did in the books at Morannon, and it would have been such a quick thing I can't understand why it would have been cut, but I didn't see it. Maybe I blinked.

[Hucklebubba]

I finally saw RotK last night, (On the puke-inducing gigantimous IMAX screen, no less. Bragging.) and now I've a powerful urge to contribute my two cents.

DocD83 said:

About Tolkien being rascist or whatever....I don't think so. He already had established the story in a tiny corner of the world, and filled it with white people (understandably so, since he's white). Then he needed Sauron to muster forces from...where? The big gray area he hasn't touched yet, of course. Then he had to decide to make them all white and shut out the modern racial diversity (honestly, would you be happy with that?), cram in the other races to what he had already written (can you say "headache"?), or just say the Easterlings looked asian and the Haradrim looked black. Given the anti-hate themes he had between peoples who were truly different (the whole Legolas/Gimli thing), this kind of talk always makes me a bit wary--it always makes me think that someone is scrounging for anything to justify their own hatred.

Ah, but you're forgetting that everything just has to have an allegorical meaning where race is concerned. I still hold that Tolkien was prejudiced against short-haired people.

...did Pippin kill a troll in this movie?

Yes, yes he did. 'Twas during the seige of Minas Tirith.


Okay, now for some of my own impressions. It seems to me that people who've seen RotK generally fall into one of two camps: (I'm ignoring people who didn't like it, because by not liking it, they forfeit the right to have their opinions count.)

1. People who think that, in terms of sheer cinematic importance, Return of the King should be renamed Return of Christ.

2. People who liked it and all, but still like Fellowship the best.


I'm closer to the latter than the former. Oh, sure, it was breathtaking and all, but during the last fifteen minutes or so, during which time my butt tendered a formal letter of resignation, I kept thinking to myself, "Okay, now would be a good time to end it. Okay, now. Now. Now? Please? Alright, Frodo and Sam get to gaze longingly at one another just one more time, and then the movie has to end. I'm serious."

Incidentally, I, like many others before me, prepared for the movie's longness by drinking little to nothing during the last few hours preceding it. So, I was a powdery, dried husk by the time the movie ended, but I didn't have to get up once. Unlike the people closer to the center of the row, who were all exactly one walking-in-front-of-me away from a severe whuppin'. (Branson is always packed to the gills with some genre of people, and right now it's College Brats.)

Probably the single most memorable aspect of RotK is that it's the only fantasy epic that I know of where the good guys get a horrifying army of the dead to fight for them. In my opinion, said army of the dead was rendered just right. I remember thinking to myself, "Wow, I think to myself a lot." and after that, I thought, "If there's going to be a ghostly army happening, they should be crazy fast, and completely unimpeded by anything." Both of my personal requirements were fulfilled poifectly. Boom. Bada bing.

When the oliphants first showed up, did anyone else think that the Rohirrim should've just wrapped cables around their legs, or am I the only one here who practices geek cross-contamination?

[DocD83]

I think I did see some cables around one fallen oiliphant's front legs, but maybe it was just some piece of gear off its back. Probably it was because, really, why would the Rohirrim have been carrying any ropes big enough to do anything to an oiliphant?

Did anyone else think that Anduril was a little too long? It looked like it would have been hard to use in a shoulder to shoulder formation.

And Gandalf kicked ass, didn't he? I want to be able to use a sword and staff like that. I just need a sword to practice with....and a staff....and some orcs to kill....

Was he using Glamdring or did he lose that when he died?

I'm really looking forward to the EE of RotK. Sure it'll be long enough to bust even my bladder--the one twice named an Honorary Camel--but at least it will (hopefully) have all those little things I wanted but didn't see. Like having to use the phial to get past those statues in Minas Morgul, or the showdown between Aragorn and the one-scene-badass-lieutenant-of-Sauron at Morannon.

I just keep thinking of things to add: One thing that bugged me about both TT and RotK is the design of gates. Real world fortifications, even in the BC era, had extremely complex structures for gates, so that even if you bash through one door you'd find yourself in a long tiny room with tall stone walls and dozens of archers firing down on you. Here the gates just seem to be a door.

I was glad to see Minas Tirith using trebuchets. I was getting tired of seeing military stagnation among the free peoples. What changes were there from the Last Alliance and before to the time of LotR? None, and how long a time span was that? 1000 years or more? But here come along the Isengard orcs with sophisticated siege ladders, Roman era formations, and explosives, and the Mordor orcs have siege towers and battering rams.

[Head Mutant]

And with the dead army, I fully expected a certain chainsaw-weilding 20th century guy to fall from the sky... "Hey Sauron, gimme some sugar, baby!"

[DocD83]

That army of the undead...correct me if i'm wrong, but in the books weren't they released right after they captured the enemy navy? I like the film version better, actually. I remember thinking "Aragorn you idiot, they've been waiting for you for a thousand years make them work more than one week!" I would have used them right through Morannon if I had been in Aragorn's place.

[Lissa]

I have to brag, because I made it through ALL of ROTK without taking a break, AND didn't have to hit the bathroom with the mobs after the movie. Of course, this is also the same girl who managed to get through her entire wedding and reception (11 hours) without it (Pooly, warn your sweetie about making sure there's a handicapped stall if she's got a ballgown), so it's par for the course for me.

I'm trying to keep my wisecracks to myself, because I'm not sure how many will end up in the review, but I do have to say this: David Wenham (Faramir) is without a doubt one of the best actors I have ever seen. We just watched Molokai last night, and let me tell you, this guy is NOT a one-character actor. Holy cow. Totally unrecognizable from the guy playing Faramir- who, of course, was completely unrecognizable from Audrey in Moulin Rouge!. He's doing his best to nudge Edward Norton out of my favorite actor (for acting ability) slot.

And did anyone else notice that their opinion of Faramir changed considerably upon watching the extended edition?

Liss

[DocD83]

And did anyone else notice that their opinion of Faramir changed considerably upon watching the extended edition?

Oh god yes. The EE changed him from a snarling "Gimme the Ring!" character to someone who didn't really want it himself but wanted to deliver it to his dad. The only thing that bugs me about him now is that he didn't resupply Frodo and Sam. Minor nit, I know.

[Hucklebubba]

DocD83 said:

I think I did see some cables around one fallen oiliphant's front legs, but maybe it was just some piece of gear off its back. Probably it was because, really, why would the Rohirrim have been carrying any ropes big enough to do anything to an oiliphant?

As this is a well thought-out reply, (I was expecting something more along the lines of, "You're a big ol' dweeb, you are!") I fear my allusion to The Empire Strikes Back may have gone unnoticed.

[DocD83]

Oh no, I noticed it. This just seemed the more interesting thing to say than to call you a Dweebhirrim.

I was going to come up with an insulting name in Sindarin but my (very small) index of Elvish root words doesn't include "nerd."

[Head Mutant]

Play nice, my little hobbitses.

[DocD83]

I consider myself a nerd, so it really wouldn't have been insulting if I had figured one out. I'd have put it on my AIM profile right next to the link for the penis fish.

[PoolMan]

DocD83 said:

...or the showdown between Aragorn and the one-scene-badass-lieutenant-of-Sauron at Morannon.

For what it's worth, the role of the Mouth of Sauron was supposedly cast (althoug IMDb doesn't back that up yet) AND there's an appearance by the MoS in the RotK video game, whom Aragorn must fight one on one. So the Magic 8 Ball says "Signs point to Yes".

[Hucklebubba]

DocD83 said:

...but my (very small) index of Elvish root words doesn't include "nerd."

There's vague irony here, says I.

And now, I'll quote myself:

I was expecting something more along the lines of, "You're a big ol' dweeb, you are!"

"Expecting" should be "hoping for." The way I've got it in the original post reads disparagingly, and disparagementation was not my intention.

[Al]

There was definitely a bit of Hoth in Minas Tirith; Legolas versus the Mumakil bears way too much of a resemblance to Luke versus the AT-AT.

Also, Faramir's restored scene in The Two Towers most definitely changed my opinion about him. Rather than Jackson simply flipping his good/evil switch to suit the film, it shows how much more thought went into the character (not to mention how well it sets up he and his father in ROTK).


A question, by the by, for someone with a better memory than I: Did Denethor take a flying leap from the courtyard in the book? As awesome as it looked onscreen, every time i see it, it does feel a tad silly.

And did anyone else feel like Christopher Lee and Brad Dourif should have gotten little portrait credits at the end of the movie like everyone else? I mean, I realize Saruman and Wormtongue weren't in the final cut, but even Boromir got one and he was in a single shot that was a flashback to the first film.

Al

[Oblivion]

I heard from somewhere, that C. Lee and P. Jackson had a fight and beloved peter j. , having shot the scene at the orthanc (about that little orb thin, damn I forgot its name), removed it from the final edit of the movie. just a rumor and I will be happy if anyone can say if this is indeed true or not.